Inkipedia:Proposals/Failed/Music and Audio overhaul

(Suggestion of music and audio overhaul,due to multiple current issues regarding copmpatiblity and copyrightUser:Sol)

Start date: 2023-12-10

End date: 2023-12-31

Veto date: 2023-12-16

Suggested outcome 1
Firstly, Clip all Splatoon series OST files in our 'music' section to 30±2 seconds - to allow for fadeout - to comply with widely accepted copyright standards, which will ensure Inkipedia's immunity to Nintendo copyright strikes in the future. Additionally, convert all existing audio files on the website, in a gradual process, to mp3 to allow for better compatibility across all devices. Most notably Apple devices cannot open the .oga files of which over half our current audio recordings are saved as, and considering the widespread nature of the iPhone and other apple devices, aswell as compatibility on all browsers etc, it is without doubt beneficial to make the transition.

Support

 * 1) I support this one, as I do not want copyright strikes--Arceusgjengen (talk) 18:31, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Supporting this, either is fine in my opinion, but this option seems the most plausible.  18:56, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Not quite the time or way I was going to go about this, but I suppose it's been started now. Inkipedia is not a music streaming platform, nor should it have ever been used to listen to the entire soundtrack. Strictly for legal reasons we should absolutely be adhering to option one: Nintendo definitely DOES take down Splatoon music, and quite often (just look at the halloween fest for examples), and just because other people do it does not mean we should engage in copyright infringement. Having a consistent, uniform playback will ensure a quality *sampling* of the soundtrack to allow readers to understand the subject without being able to pirate the soundtrack through our platform. Music samples should be exactly that: samples. A reader does not not reasonably need to hear an entire track to understand its contents when text descriptions can accomplish the same goal. Fair use would absolutely not apply to where we stand now, and given Nintendo's increased crackdowns on how their content is being used digitally (especially for social media platforms), having a heightened sense of due diligence will only ensure the site is allowed to continue as intended. There are plenty of other services available where you are able to listen to full soundtracks. There is also nothing stopping you from downloading music from any service to have both offline and permanently. How you feel about the matter personally does not change the rights that Nintendo possesses over their property or their ability to enforce them. This is only strengthened by the fact that with the existence of the Splatune CDs, where it could be seen as a direct financial threat to the company. It is the legally correct and morally correct option for truncated files. Trig Jegman - 13:48, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Nintendo is known for being one of the most strict companies when it comes to the use of their media. I consider this the second safest option after removing any type of audio file on Inkipedia. 19:15, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 5) I want to keep the music, let alone Inkipedia as a whole, and if trimming music down to ~30 second samples guarantees Inkipedia stays up, then I'm voting for it. If people really want to listen to the full song, the high majority of them are already on other websites anyways (more than *just* YouTube). Switching websites to listen to a song is a small price to pay compared to not having a Splatoon Wiki. SquishyAuri (talk)
 * 6) Inkipedia is not a music site. If you want to hear the full version, Youtube and other sites are always there. I don't want this issue to be a risk to the wiki, even if said risk is unlikely. 22:17, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 7) Inkipedia is an encyclopedia. Encyclopedias summarize topics. That's simply what encyclopedias are for. A short clip of audio, as well as a text description of the audio, is an appropriate way for an encyclopedia to handle music. People can go to youtube or play the game the hear the full audio. People can go to Inkipedia to learn facts about the audio. As it should be. The fact that Inkipedia is an encyclopedia, combined with the fact that having full audio is against the law, give us more than enough reason to go this route. While it's unlikely that Nintendo will send Inkipedia a Cease & Desist / DMCA request, the fact remains that Splatoon music is their property and we should respect it. Someone could theoretically use Inkipedia instead of buying a Splatoon soundtrack, and that's something we need to resolve. Heddy (talk) 03:22, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 8) Very very easy support, no doubt about it, for all the reasons everyone else has said. It's not our place to be hosting full albums' worth of music when we all know how Nintendo gets picky at the best of times over this stuff, especially when things like YouTube aren't exactly difficult to access. GloverMist (talk) 14:29, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 9) I support limiting audio files to short samples. Having audio files (especially downloadable ones) of full songs can pretty much make Inkipedia some sort of piracy site. With Nintendo's new regulations on sharing media there is definitely a greater chance of takedown. Even if it's unlikely, it's better we didn't risk it.  19:46, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Surprisingly, I agree with Option 1. The fact of the matter is that the songs can be found in other places, and the wiki shouldn't have to deal with any chance of being copyrighted. Wave (talk) 23:04, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Suggested outcome 2
Leave the file lengths as they are, in this opinion the user's experience is favoured, but does not ensure Inkipedia's guaranteed safety which could be detrimential long-term. However still supporting the notion of converting to mp3 files for aforementioned reasons.

Support

 * 1) I really would like to see outcome two be passed out. Inkipedia is one of my main sources for Splatoon music, and for all of them to be shortened to 30 seconds each wouldn't really make me feel great. (I need music to function correctly) I also hope that the files be converted to mp3, because I use iPhone often for Inkipedia and can't listen to the music. I strongly dislike outcome one, because I don't feel like Nintendo really cares, or they would be all over YouTube. (Not sure, speaking from my perspective here) And I feel like some other people agree with me, and use Inkipedia to listen to music. I feel we would all be sad to see the music go, to 30 seconds clips of the wonderful music Splatoon has, and that is why I feel that outcome two is the best outcome, for the people who listen to music, and just want to be happy in general. Stay Fresh!
 * 2) Trimming songs to 30 sec. would be extremely detrimental to people who want to listen to the full versions when they don't have the resources to get the official albums from the aftermarket. Nintendo isn't DMCA-ing the living daylights out of YouTube when they uploaded music videos of Liquid Sunshine and Big Betrayal for example in Season promotions. Plus, I believe that it doesn't fit Inkipedia's philosophy of being factual and informative, also people want to "listen" to the music than read a description of "how the full song sounds". I also believe that converting all audio files to .mp3 would expand this franchise's music to a larger audience on Apple devices as stated, can be beneficial. Outcome #2 is, in my opinion, the most logical choice.   21:34, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) I feel that cutting down the audio files is an unnessecary move and would be a very large undertaking for this wiki. There are likely hundreds of files that would need editing, which would be hard for the amount of people who'd actually have the ability to edit them. Not to mention this policy offers no guidelines for how these edits would be made, which makes me question the consistency & quality of them. I also think it should be mentioned that a lot of Splatoon music taken down by Nintendo, like the Splatoween music, has been leaked content. There has been no notable move to remove the videos of the same music, especially posted by the same accounts, after official release. If anything this shows to me that Nintendo does have the ability to take down Splatoon music, but chooses not to. This wiki has existed almost equally as long as the franchise itself, Nintendo is no doubt aware of it. I find it hard to believe that after about 8 years they would only now decide to take action. On the topic of mp3 conversion, this would no doubt better user experience. As long as quality is not lowered in any way, we should strive for the wiki to be accessible across all platforms.  06:26, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) I feel like shortened versions of the music, while obviously more legally sound, would not be nearly as effective for reference since most Splatoon tracks take more than 30 seconds to loop, and removing everything after that point has the potential to remove parts of the song that are described or referenced on the wiki (just as one example, the interpolation of Anarchy Rainbow in Daybreaker Anthem, which is referred to on the page, only occurs several minutes into the song). I also think that since Nintendo has not officially released the soundtrack in regions other than Japan, and has generally not issued takedowns of non-leaked Splatoon songs, replacing the versions on Inkipedia is currently not a major priority. This could probably stand to be reevaluated if Nintendo started seriously cracking down on non-leaked Splatoon soundtrack uploads on sites like YouTube, which are higher profile than Inkipedia and thus likely to be a "canary in the coal mine" for a more aggressive approach toward uploaded music. Similarly, if Nintendo began to officially make the soundtrack available in other regions via channels like YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Music, replacing the songs would be a much easier decision since Inkipedia could then link to the full versions of the songs or albums through official channels. But until either of those things happens, I think removing or replacing Inkipedia's music files would be premature. Lyichir (talk) 19:51, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Do nothing
Vote in this section if you oppose all options, or if you are neutral, or if you wish to abstain.

Support

 * 1) Vote to dismiss the proposal as not enough details are given as to what the overhauled policy would be. This feels like an extended Ink Pump conversation. My views are documented in the Ink Pump archives.  14:40, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Agreed with both Slate and what Yoshifan52 has stated in the discussion below; this proposal is a good idea in theory but is woefully underdeveloped in practice. There should have been a much clearer writeup of what the actual policy page would look like from the start. I'd also like to point out that despite the recommendation of editors in the Discord, the proposal writer demonstrably did not take their time making it (the proposal was written in less than 30 minutes) or reference the example draft written by administrator Trig Jegman. Driftin Soul (talk) 15:40, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Abstaining from voting on either proposed option until the proposal has a more developed draft attached to it, agreeing with the other arguments discussed here.  19:33, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

 * In a contrast to Trig Jegman's argument, I feel like a (excuse my language here) dumb sample and description of what the music would sound like isn't enough. Imagine if you played an instrument like me, and someone just gave you some sheet music. You understand what it "could" sound like, but it leaves you wanting to hear the actual product, with no way to do so. And in my opinion, Trig Jegman, you are trying to do that to the viewers of Inkipedia. Leave them without even an inkling (get the humor there? Inkling means hint or idea.) of what the actual music would sound like and leave them thirsty for the true sound of the music. Mere descriptions cannot do any music justice! Never! You're saying," Music samples should be exactly that: samples. A reader does not reasonably need to hear an entire track to understand its contents when text descriptions can accomplish the same goal." No it doesn't! It really doesn't! I cannot stress this enough, our (excuse my language again here) lame, bland, useless descriptions cannot even begin to cover the music of Splatoon! It can't even try! Let's take Big Betrayal for example. It says,"The first half of the track is in the key of A minor, opening with a lighter chord progression that revolves around the v and bVI (E minor and F major) with synth leads panned left and right that resemble sirens. This transitions into the section in which Shiver and Frye harass Big Man in the music video, with electric bass and synthesizers that share a unison bass line. When the sung vocals begin, the song modulates to Bb minor, with Shiver and Frye singing hits along with the instrumental backing. The chorus comes in after a 1-bar break with the idols harmonizing with a vocoder to a punchy, syncopated melody and is followed by a halftime section similar to Till Depth Do Us Part that loops into the intro." Here is what a reader would definitely be thinking."A MINOR?! I DON'T KNOW WHAT A MINOR IS!!! ISN'T IT A CHORD?! BUT I CAN'T REMEMBER WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE! I CAN'T REMEMBER ANY OF THE CHORDS!!! OH NO! WHAT?! TILL DEPTH DO US PART LOOPS INTO THE INTRO?! WELL WHAT THE FLUFFERNUTTER SANDWICH DOES TILL DEPTH DO US PART SOUND LIKE?! HRMMMMMM?!? I REALLY WISH I COULD ACTUALLY LISTEN TO THE MUSIC, BUT NO APPARENTLY I CAN'T! WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!" That's what our readers would be thinking. We all don't want to leave them like this, we provide information. But if we cut all of the music to 30 seconds, you may as well remove the music in the first place, and leave our readers with nothing. Sorry about the rant, I just feel very strongly for this topic.
 * ...you know that youtube uploads exist and will probably continue to do so, right? Like you can just, go there, type the name of the song, and find a bunch of them immediately. I'm not gonna pretend I know all about copyright laws off the top of my head, but people on the internet love ignoring them anyway — the entire OST's very probably already out there, and I could bet it has been for a long time!
 * (sorry, i took too long to write this and now someone else has answered as well below, lol)
 * 19:47, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm just going to point out that the bold text, and the punctuation both make it sound very... rage-y. Wave (talk) 23:00, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
 * It is rage-y. I really don’t want them to remove the music. 23:16, 17 December 2023 (UTC)


 * And there's several other websites to go to listen to Splatoon music as well. Spotify, game files, etc etc. Music is not limited to the Inkipedia only, and when in crisis, I think it's better if the Inkipedia just shorten it; like others have said, the Inkipedia is not a song only site, it's for all information including the game Splatoon, and by supporting a rule that may or may not get the Inkipedia in legal trouble, you're straining other users from viewing the content.
 * It's not a first that a website like the Inkipedia has gotten copyright striked and or sued, it probably wont be the last. When it comes to Nintendo, we have to walk on egg shells to not make them mad. It sucks that the music has to be shortened, but I think it's our best option. 20:09, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I feel strongly otherwise. Name one other wiki that has been sued. Please. By all means, try. (Not sure if any of the other wikis have music, but dunno) Maybe not even a NIWA wiki, maybe even a fandom one. If you can name a single wiki that has been copyright striked and or sued as you say, I may change my mind. If not, then I will stand as I am, and continue to fight for the better option. 20:24, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Do we really need to specifically have a wiki come under legal trouble? There's a precedent for youtube channels being taken down, and just because inkipedia is a wiki rather than a youtube channel doesn't mean we're magically exempt from nintendo legal action.
 * PS: Making your arguments Bold or TYPING IN ALL CAPS doesn't make your argument stronger. Unnecesarily using these just makes the text harder to read for people. 21:04, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Um...? I use the bolds to emphasize what I'm saying and to present a tone of voice. Either way, I am confident that choice two is the better option. If you could give me a bit more reasoning... I may change my mind. 21:14, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The problem with what you're saying is that a lot of your arguments are subjective, which isn't very helpful when talking about a case of avoiding legal action. Stuff like being 'left thirsty' or the descriptions and previews 'not even beginning to cover the music of splatoon' are entirely subjective opinions rather than any concrete fact and they don't do much to really convince me of your point.
 * Anyways, if you really want a wiki-specific example, Arceusjengen already replied with one. 22:02, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Super Mario Wiki got in trouble for having full tracks. Arceusgjengen (talk) 21:50, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh really? Well I always wondered where the music was, never found any. What exactly happened in terms of “trouble”? Did they have to pay a fine, or just take it down, or? Also, was it Nintendo who got them in trouble? Just curious, because it’s better to know than wonder. Stay Fresh! 22:06, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Although no wiki has been sued, the Super Mario Wiki has gotten into copyright issues because of music. Additionally, Youtube exists, so why not just search for music there? Inkipedia is not a music site, so I have no problem reducing the songs to 30 seconds. As stated by others above, your argument is mostly subjective. Your argument of what a reader would think is entirely your opinion. Who know what they would think of it? The chances of this wiki being taken down or getting into severe trouble is unlikely. However, this does not mean we should disregard the risks. The solution is simple, really. If you have a problem with shortened songs, just listen to them on another platform. 22:14, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thing is, imagine you are theoretical child. Theroretical child is 11. Theoretical child cannot watch YouTube, because their parents said so. Theoretical child can only use their school computer, because they do not have a personal one. Theoretical child’s school blocked most other music websites (SoundCloud, spotify, VideoGameMusicDownloads, etc.) Outside of Inkipedia, theoretical child has no access to the Splatoon music they enjoy. So you see, they would be very unhappy if all of the music they listened to was just pretty much erased. Now imagine theoretical child is me. I’m sure by now you see my point here. Not every single person who wants to listen to Splatoon music can, outside of the wiki, and I feel removing the music (We basically are by now, don’t try to say 30 seconds isn’t removing it, because it pretty much is removing the music entirely) would limit those people whose recourses are limited while they can’t do anything about it. By the way, I’m not sure what subjective means, I assume it has something to do with opinions and personal feelings, but isn’t this all about feeling? Without feeling, there is nothing, and this entire argument is about how we feel this should go. So, these are my opinions. Accept them or argue against them, they’re not changing anytime soon. 22:30, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Off topic but if you’re 11 you shouldn’t have an account on this wiki. Unless you’re using this as an example and not as yourself. Either way, if all these options are blocked, just listen to the jukebox in game. Idk what to tell you atp. 23:11, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Everything here is me, I just used 11 because I don’t wanna give out my age. Btw, I can’t use the jukebox because I don’t have an online membership. 23:56, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Most Splatoon songs technically aren't even a minute long. Most songs are just repeats which create those extra three minutes, so shorting songs shouldn't exactly a major issue; not when they're just repeats for 3 minutes. 02:46, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * "Theoretical child cannot watch YouTube, because their parents said so. Theoretical child can only use their school computer," I'm pretty sure nowadays there's ways to get unblocked Youtube anyway; if that's your issue, you can look up ways to get unblocked versions. And again, there's other platforms to get this music, Discord, Tiktok, Spotify, or you can buy it in game or I think there's a soundtrack that you can buy. There's so many ways to get the music other than the Inkipedia.
 * And, eleven year olds cannot be on the wiki due to more legal reasons, so they'd be out of luck.
 * "By the way, I’m not sure what subjective means, I assume it has something to do with opinions and personal feelings," You're almost right, Subjective means that you base your rulings off of opinions and personal experience, everyone is asking you to be objective, which limits the amount of opinion you input in your responses. Being subjective doesn't entirely hold your feelings, it's your opinions, so there's no reason to talk about feelings. 02:56, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the definition. Btw, about the unblocking thing, doesn’t work at my school. If something is blocked, there is no way around it. They’ve blocked 3 Kazwire’s, and pretty much every other block evasion website. YouTube isn’t blocked, I just don’t use it because I don’t want to disobey my parents. Also, I am over 13, just so everyone knows, I just used 11 so I don’t give our my real age. Also also, not t what you meant by, “And, eleven year olds cannot be on the wiki due to more legal reasons,” Do you mean they can’t have an account? Or they just cannot be on the wiki at all, ever? (Until they’re older of course) That was all. Thanks again for answering my questions, and although I’m not switching sides, I do see a different point of view on the subject. I will try to be less subjective and more objective when it comes to these arguments, and don’t forget to Stay Fresh! 12:19, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I dont remember the name, but there's a law against allowing kids under 13 on the internet; I believe it's somewhere on this wiki. We could get shut down for allowing underaged children. 20:45, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * While I agree that it will leave the user curious and wanting more of the song, I also think that if the reader really wants to hear the full song, they can find it on other platforms such as YouTube (and I'm sure there is more than just YouTube for listening to the songs), which is a small price to pay compared to having no wiki (extending beyond music) at all. Turning them into just samples, while I don't like it, is also the safest option as it avoids any potential copyright/court case and/or fines, which would result in either the entire wiki being taken down (leaving viewers with ACTUALLY nothing), or the wiki is left up but no music at all. Again, I want to keep the full music, I really do, but if someone wants to listen to the songs, most of them can already be found on other websites. SquishyAuri (talk)
 * Super Mario Wiki, Wikipedia, and The Cutting Room Floor have all had multiple issues when it comes to audio use on their respective wikis. If the scope of your point was takedown requests at all, we could easily throw in Pikipedia and Minecraft. I also disagree with your statement that music can not be textually described. I think the use of music theory terms is not advantageous, but using good descriptions of what the music contains instrumentally and a general mood could be a good start. It may be wise to look to our peers at Pikipedia for their coverage of music in the franchise, with pages like Music in Pikmin 2—which provides an explanation and a link to the soundtrack off-platform. Users inability to use a different platform is not our concern, we are simply providing an option. Please consider: Inkipedia's purpose is documentation and education; being a repository of files does not make something documentarian. We only set off to describe the components of the games/series. Just because you might be interested in more of the music does not mean that a limited sample of music (30 seconds) cannot appropriately provide an assisted explanation to the piece. The audio attached is supplementing the text, not the text supplementing the audio. To me, I read your concern as "My parents don't let me on youtube" and not "there are legal justifications for not truncating and limiting audio quality". I was going to propose this same topic, and had set guidelines for how I wanted audio to be formatted (MP3; 44.1k/16b/160kbps). Another point is that other social media services, such as Instagram, Spotify, and Bandcamp also limit their song sample lengths to 30 seconds when it comes to track previews. Here's a link to that draft. Trig - 23:48, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Hey, if I made a repository of splatoon music and linked to my own website (that i would have to make of course) by just putting a helpful little link at the very bottom of the music page, would anyone object/like this option? id like to learn to make my own website anyway - [user:sol]
 * I would object to that. I'm pretty sure linking to a site with full downloads of copyrighted songs is still illegal for the exact same reason we shouldn't be hosting it. While I don't think we'd get sued, they could still send a DMCA, and if it's on your website they could sue you for it if they really wanted. I don't think this is a good option. Sourguppyworm (talk) 00:36, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I would rather a more formalized/established platform, personally. Trig - 23:48, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I dunno, I would be find with that. Maybe a music wiki, of video game music! I like that. 00:02, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Does such a platform exist? Sol (talk) 00:04, 16 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Completely separate from the topic at hand, this page reads as a discussion page to lead into a proposal rather than a proper policy proposal; this discussion aims to change policy, but isn't accompanied by a new policy page/previous policy page edit draft. I recommend taking a look at how our thus far successful proposals are formatted to understand the problem. Regardless of the vote's outcome, there is nothing provided to add to our policy pages, and the current options' writeups are not up to Inkipedia's policy page standards. Yoshifan52 (talk) 23:53, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I dunno, I think the options are pretty clear and the topic has been discussed a while. If there’s anything explicit I can do to improve it (im new and happy to learn) please let me know. I’m aware the discussion is indeed devolving into some people just angry, but I still think it’s a valid proposal nonetheless, and I have approval from other administrators. Sol (talk) 23:59, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The best thing to do right now would be starting a policy page draft as seen in the pages on the link I attached, but it wouldn't be appropriate to attach a policy draft after the vote has started, so I think a separate vote and re-proposal would have to be made. Yoshifan52 (talk) 00:16, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I heavily agree with this. I mention in my vote there is no standards for how the edits to the music would be made.It's unfair to vote for an idea without knowing details of the full policy. 00:59, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Given that I'd like to use my policy for this, and we don't *really* have a way to handle this weird situation at the moment, would it make sense to de-proposal this discussion and move it to my policy draft?, then proposing said draft myself? Trig - 19:08, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm in favor of shutting down this vote altogether since it is merely the same opinion gauging that's happened on the Ink Pump several times now and not presenting tangible, written up properly changes to the wiki's policy. Placing your alternative proposal forward more would be great, but this page would need to be shut down regardless of you having a proper one on hand to swap towards. I'm very surprised so many people have voted on this when there is no actual proposed policy page/edit. Yoshifan52 (talk) 20:43, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Administration Veto Vote
Per policy, with support of three administrators, will immediately end the vote of this proposal. The reason being that there is no actual policy being pushed, and therefore it accomplishes nothing if passed.
 * 1) Trig. As an aside, this conversation will be preserved, and I will set forward a dedicated policy to actually vote on while having the discussion here for reference. - 21:22, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) I would argue this accomplishes worse than nothing if passed, as it ushers onto others the work of setting up the related policy page after the vote has taken place. Yoshifan52 (talk) 21:25, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Per the others, this proposal does not actually propose any concrete policy, and for that reason alone, needs to be halted until something can be drafted properly. My original opinion on the matter still stands, but more importantly, let’s get this proposal going through the proper motions first, eh? GloverMist (talk) 22:14, 16 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you Sol (talk) 23:38, 16 December 2023 (UTC)