Inkipedia talk:Ink Pump

The Ink Pump Welcome to the Ink Pump. Similar to Wikipedia's village pump, the Ink Pump serves as a general place for the Inkipedia community to discuss the wiki as a whole, whether it be ideas, proposals, technical issues, or notices.

Note: for proposals, Ink Pump should only be used for any discussion and brainstorming that precede a proposal; the actual proposal should be created according to the consensus policy, with major changes proposed at Inkipedia:Proposals, and minor changes proposed at the talk page of the relevant policy.

Remember to put new discussion sections at the bottom of the page.

You may also wish to view recent talk page discussions.

Archives available here. Inactive topics should be archived when this page reaches 25 topics or 60,000 bytes. Any Inkipedia user can archive the page.

Current page size is bytes.

We need to discuss audio use on Inkipedia
Hey gang. It's time for the discussion nobody wants to really have: Our current audio use is blatantly unacceptable for copyright. More specifically, I am concerned about the presentation of the Music page and Inkipedia's providing of entire game soundtracks for viewing and download. I do not believe this can be claimed as fair use copyright, and would like to introduce stricter policy in order to prevent any possible issues that could arise. My rough guide can be found on this draft page. The general summary of changes is the following: It's not something I think a lot of people are necessarily are going to enjoy as an outcome, but it is something that I do believe to be legally necessary. I am requesting feedback on the policy itself, as well as logistics on implementation and questions anyone may have. Trig - 02:45, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * First and most importantly, Inkipedia will no longer host full songs on the platform. All audio files will be cropped to a maximum of 30 seconds in observance of several other similar policies as to not serve as a substitution for commercial products like Splatune or content exclusive to buying the game (music not released outside the game in official means).
 * Audio files will be recaptured and standardized in quality. The attempt is to move to using MP3 formatting with a standard quality threshold and loudness. Any files played on Inkipedia should A) be able to be heard on most to all common browsers, B) be of a consistent quality, and C) a consistent volume so users do not need to constantly adjust for playback.
 * The music page will be rewritten more to discuss broad styles of music and the artists that make them, relative themes, and be more text-focused.


 * I think this is entirely fair. I would like to mention that from what I've heard (I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice), "fair use" is a lot more limited than people tend to say it is, but with how Nintendo has historically acted towards uploads of their soundtracks, it's good to be as safe as possible while maintaining the purpose of the wiki. I do think that the policy could be more strict than 30 seconds, as some songs can be quite short to the point where 30 seconds can really be pushing the boundaries. XarrotD (talk) 03:38, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 30 second samples are pretty common on music stores. Wikipedia recommends shorter samples for shorter music, but I think that's too complicated for our needs. I suppose it might be reasonable to use a shorter duration if the song is really short, so long as the sample is long enough to "illustrate the particular instruments or musical elements in a song in a way that a text description cannot" (Wikipedia quote). Heddy (talk) 05:07, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * English Wikipedia's adherence to "Fair Use" policies is way stricter than is necessary, either theoretically or in practice, and should not be the model/guide we follow here. –Eli (talk) 13:58, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Information on deletion of excessive-length audio should probably be added. Like, do we keep audio until a suitable replacement has been uploaded? Or do we delete all music files immediately? I lean towards the latter.
 * Exceptions should probably be made for audio that is not music. Like, the audio files that have every Inkling/Octoling sound effect. Heddy (talk) 05:07, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I think the policy is good. I think the rewritten music page will be much better than the current one.
 * What section of the songs would we use for the 30 second versions? Would it be the first 30 seconds?  05:55, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I also completely agree with this idea, for obvious copyright reasons, and I think we should try to implement it sooner rather than later. I'd argue that the first 30 seconds would be best no matter what, similar to the S3 jukebox, but I'd go one step further and reduce the length for shorter songs so we aren't hosting the full track - personally, I think the extra faff in editing those would be worth it for the payoff. GloverMist (talk) 10:22, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I'll actually push back on that. Shorter songs are shorter songs, if they're met in 30 seconds then they are met in 30 seconds. Previewing features on sites don't change for short tracks. I would personally suggest flagging all files with a template indicating a change is made and having a team of people work through them. All would need to be new uploads so old revisions are not found. I am also willing to give a small audacity guide to help users properly edit the clips. I do not think there is an overwhelmingly present need to delete everything outright, but if that's what other users feel is smoothest to do, then it is what should be done. WiKirby, for example, when doing theirs, did not delete everything but rather went one game at a time. Trig - 13:59, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I've shared thoughts on this before but I honestly don't think this is necessary or worth it. It is up to copyright holders to enforce what they may argue as not being Fair Use – which has a wide range of interpretations in the first place. This wiki is strictly for educational purposes, is making no profit and is not charging anyone, and cannot ever be reasonably claimed to be targeting Nintendo's revenue stream or stealing customers from them (this is a website, Splatoon is a game, different mediums and even userbases, yadda yadda). We don't need to bend over backwards to imagine what Nintendo theoretically could care about (but doesn't, and hasn't for almost a decade now) or walk on eggshells and self-police based on some unfounded, and in practice unrealistic, fear. –Eli (talk) 14:04, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I disagree with the notion of "cannot ever be reasonably claimed to be targeting Nintendo's revenue stream or stealing customers from them". Nintendo reasonably expects members to purchase the soundtrack legally through Splatune or through the purchase of the game itself, and the hosting of said soundtracks are a free alternative to this purchase. Regardless, just because Nintendo has not specifically gone after any particular wikis as of yet does not mean we are not still participating in copyright violations. It is the drastically safer option and morally correct option to make these changes. I would also be dubious of referring to our content as "educational". If this were the case, larger sites like Wikipedia would also be hosting full songs and they also would qualify as "educational". Trig Jegman - 14:38, 30 August 2023 (UTC)


 * I'll preface this by saying these are my views and I am not speaking for the wiki as a whole nor ending the discussion here.
 * I agree with Eli: this is a massive undertaking which would involve editing copyrighted material to downsample and trim it, which in itself is a copyright violation. The stance of "short music clips are fine" is a weird line to draw, if we are to follow copyright law. Wikipedia's style guide says "samples should not exceed 30 seconds or 10% of the length of the original song, whichever is shorter" (emphasis mine). Furthermore, this actively harms Inkipedia, as you will be destroying previous well-established content that has not been a problem. If not Inkipedia, users will go to other sites to download the songs if they want to do that, and I'd rather they stay here and not download malware from dubious sites.
 * On the Nintendo front, this wiki exists and continues to, by Nintendo's good graces. I would be shocked if they do not know about this site. As mentioned, Fair Use is a flimsy argument and if they wanted to, Inkipedia could be shut down overnight, music or not, because the wiki covers copyrighted content (that is, the Splatoon series). I don't think we should pretend to be lawyers. If Nintendo sends us a message, we will follow it.
 * Inkipedia also covers music and audio that is not in Splatune. What about when no better alternatives exist?
 * As for something a bit more palatable, we could link to Splatune on the music page and file pages. We should be for the original sourcing anyway.
 * 13:45, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Well-said – I agree with everything stated above. "I don't think we should pretend to be lawyers" is the crux of my argument, and the framing of this proposed action as "destroying previous well-established content that has not been a problem" is entirely correct. It would be a huge blow to the wiki, is hugely overreaching and a far from naturally or mutually agreed upon interpretation, and would greatly decrease the site's usefulness. Every song is also available on YouTube in full, uploads which are allowed to exist by Nintendo (as they would be removed, selectively blocked, or monetized by the Content ID system if not, which Nintendo is known to use).
 * Being able to listen to songs online is not going to stop anyone from buying the game – this is a claim that is unjustifiable, and no existing research proves or even suggests this. This claim is what would need to be legally proven in order to say that this is actually violating a Fair Use doctrine, but everything here is simply your personal opinion and interpretation, @Trig Jegman, from what I'm understanding. But do you have any sources which specifically back this up, that being able to listen to music from a videogame decreases sales of that videogame? In fact, we can't even prove that full-blown piracy hurts videogame sales – there's no link that's been shown.
 * A few more points: The songs are not on any official streaming site, and the physical soundtracks are not even officially licensed or sold in the US or any other English-speaking market anyway, only as an import from Japan. Moreover, we are not featuring any music in a manner or purpose of being a file hosting site (it is an encyclopedia); critically, articles here provide commentary on the original works, further justifying this use. Everything here points to our use of music not being a violation of Fair Use claims… and it's not up to us to self-destruct and somehow disprove this ourselves at a sudden, random point after nearly a decade with no underlying motivation or reason. –Eli (talk) 06:18, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Nintendo has been known to issue takedowns of their music, and they will use it for existing uploads of the Splatoon soundtracks if they catch wind of them. Just because they haven't taken down various uploads on Youtube yet does not mean that they will not in the future. And while our usage of the tracks likely does not cause a significant impact on Nintendo's sales, this does not matter in the end, as Nintendo could issue takedowns as they please.
 * I also simply don't see the value in hosting entire tracks as-is. Does it benefit the wiki to host entire songs like this? As the music article currently stands, there is no commentary being added to the music, just the music itself, and providing the entire track is not necessary to provide commentary on it. I personally think that most people would look to uploads of the soundtrack on Youtube instead of the wiki. While we could simply comply with a takedown when they issue one, I think that it's more trouble than it is worth. XarrotD (talk) 17:01, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * My point is they don't need to issue takedowns – at this point, for any audio portion of any video on YouTube, it's not typically a manual process that has to go through Nintendo, then KADOKAWA, then Google, etc… it gets automatically flagged by the Content ID digital fingerprinting system which detects unauthorized use before videos even go live, and even for private or unlisted videos. Nintendo does this for some music, but it seems like they've explicitly chosen not to do it with any Splatoon songs, considering there are videos with tens of millions of views that have been live for years. Nintendo even uploads full tracks with music videos themselves, sometimes! There is nothing to either point to the fact that Nintendo wants to restrict this content, or (as stated above) that the availability of music on the internet would impact sales of the entire videogame (a different medium) in any way.
 * Yes, it does benefit the wiki. I'm not only talking about the "Music" article. Check out articles like Calamari Inkantation or Splattack! with thousands of words talking about the music structure, leitmotifs, cultural references, game usage, variations, and so on. Certain in-game and promotional images even show official music notes on a staff, official dance moves, and so on, and the wiki highlights at what point in songs these pieces relate. That is a critical benefit provided by articles on the wiki as they exist today. People are also free to look up things of their own volition on YouTube or other platforms.
 * You're phrasing things like "when they issue one" as if this is for some reason inevitable, but have absolutely zero evidence behind why you think this will happen, as opposed to if it will ever happen, which it hasn't for almost a decade. Nothing suggests this will happen. The only thing that is "more trouble than it is worth" is revising every music file on the entire wiki now, for no reason, rather than continuing to be prudent, reactive, and operating in good faith. Complying with DMCA takedown requests if third-parties issue them is how websites (and ISPs and hosting providers) operate and we have no justification or reason to act in a starkly different manner to essentially every other website out there. (Heddy also mentioned more about this in their now-removed comment – but I'm linking it here because it speaks to this point as well.) –Eli (talk) 11:25, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I still don't think we need to host entire tracks, although the usage of a full song if analysis is provided is a decent use. I will also mention that content ID cannot differentiate between gameplay videos and uploads of soundtracks, and Nintendo is supportive of gameplay content. Because of this, they cannot issue automatic takedowns as it would risk getting gameplay videos taken down. With how Nintendo acts when it comes to content on Youtube (yes, they have issued major takedowns, albeit on a rather irregular basis), I see no reason why they would not act similarly to the full soundtracks being made available on a wiki site. I think it's okay if we simply comply with takedowns as they are issued, and I think there is a high chance of it happening. XarrotD (talk) 17:59, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Re: "I see no reason why they would not act similarly to the full soundtracks being made available on a wiki site [...] I think there is a high chance of it happening." – any ideas as to why it hasn't happened for over 8 years, then? Serious question. What makes you think there's a high chance? Nothing points to this being likely.
 * Re: "I think it's okay if we simply comply with takedowns as they are issued" – agreed. –Eli (talk) 19:37, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * As somebody who has made the entire OST (of all three games) into a playlist on YT without uploading a single new video, I can testify that there is all of the material that we have simply available on YouTube. It's a platform that Nintendo uses, and they haven't issued takedowns for almost any of the material there.
 * We can leave the audio files the way they are on the Music page, and comply with any takedowns that Nintendo issues.
 * We cut all of our audio files down to 30 seconds or however long we decide for each one, but we add links to the songs on YouTube, maybe on an official soundtrack like VGM Haven for the first 2 games and the Nintendo Music Channel for the 3rd.
 * We cut all of our audio files down to 30 seconds and deal with potential backlash for it.
 * I still think that 1 is the best option, because Nintendo hasn't issued anything yet on the full soundtracks on YouTube that have millions of views, so they wouldn't gun for us first. *shrug* Wave (talk) 19:00, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Umm...
 * You posted this like it was just something that was happening. I think that's a problem. It should be a proposal. Wave (talk) 19:09, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Not ignoring this, just haven't had time to respond succinctly. I like the second option of having domestic trimmed tracks and embedding or linking to YouTube for the soundtracks as an option. I didn't want to launch this straight into a proposal because I wanted to feel the waters around first. Trig - 21:32, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Relying on centralized, third-party (and low quality) sites like YouTube might be the second-best option for user experience, but isn't a good practice for archival/documentation purposes. (Hell, the Internet Archive actually has the full soundtrack(s) too…) But there is, frankly, nothing to support the suggestion that we should proactively spend a lot of time trimming tracks (especially considering nothing points to any potential violation of Fair Use in the first place, so this is totally unnecessary, if we're assuming good faith here) instead of bettering the wiki in other ways. –Eli (talk) 04:45, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I can link to my playlist to give us a base selection of songs to link to, so lmk if we end up doing that. Wave (talk) 13:30, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * No matter what happens, I really support making the music page more text-focused. Arceusgjengen (talk) 10:37, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Automated translations
We've talked about translating material a few times and the primary gripe is editors using Google translate, which is notorious for being inaccurate. I propose a few solutions:


 * 1) We write a formal policy that bans machine translations.
 * 2) We allow the machine translations, but editors must also use a note/template that says this is machine-translated / needs verifying.
 * 3) We have a bot that adds machine translations using Deepl, for editors to verify after the fact. The translations could be tagged as bot translations.

In any case, I could make a check for machine translations. 13:54, 31 August 2023 (UTC)


 * My ideal solution would be to allow the use of DeepL, provided that the translations are clearly marked as such in the article. I'd have a category created for these articles, so that they can be reviewed by fluent speakers of the languages. I think that a formal policy about this would be necessary, so that users who use other, less reliable, bot translators, or do not mark bot translations properly, can be punished. Even if we ban all machine translations, a formal policy regarding translations is long overdue, which has resulted in a large amount of machine translations being added to the wiki by unknowing users. 14:59, 31 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Given Inkipedia's wide language base, I support option 1 with not permitting any machine translations period end of sentence. Trig - 15:44, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree, even with a notice it's better to avoid making errors and spreading possible misinfo. 15:49, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I think that it would be good to check for machine translations, maybe adding it as a project as well. I don't think that it would be a good idea to outright ban machine translations, because they would have their merits for early translations of new material. We should DEFINITELY add a tag for them, though. Wave (talk) 17:53, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I vote for #1 – any other method is irresponsible and leads to more misinformation being circulated. Notes about MTL are not good enough for people (especially fans of this game, historically) to not take these translations at face value, and only results in more bad translations circulating. An especially relevant case of this was regarding one of the new tweets from a few days ago about some new music track, which had a phrase that both Google Translate and DeepL translated as "skanky" instead of "ska". Re: proposal #3, there is no way to reliably detect text as being machine translated or not – while telltale signs do exist, this is an open, unsolved problem and we don't need actually-translated-by-a-human-who-knows-what-they're-doing text getting incorrectly flagged.
 * We have multiple people doing proper translation work for this series (as Trig also mentioned above) and don't need to devalue their work by littering MTL all over the place or bringing down the high-quality and accuracy that this wiki prides itself on. –Eli (talk) Eli (talk) 11:39, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree with Trig and Eli on #1. Additionally, seeing as some users have already disregarded (or haven't noticed?) the policy surrounding leaks, it's likely that many machine translations won't be tagged properly. 11:52, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Do we have enough active translators to reliably translate all of the material? Wave (talk) 18:42, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * It depends on what you mean by "all the material" (is that even possible?) but the major/important stuff gets translated, yes. I often get pinged on Discord by @Perfectionist when material they're looking at (which is pretty comprehensive, in my experience) needs some clarification. :P –Eli (talk) 04:38, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I would prefer banning machine translations, since they often have errors. I don't think it is necessary to have them on Inkipedia, since people can use things like Google Translate or DeepL themselves if they would like to read a machine translation.  04:36, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree – people should feel free to use these tools themselves (as we always provide a reference/link to the original Japanese, if not mirroring the text as well) but output from them at one point in time doesn't need to be baked into articles on the wiki. –Eli (talk) 04:40, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I am for option 1, as I can't consider the other two options options. Every edit on Inkipedia is appreciated, as it reflects time and work invested to improve a page. Translating dialogues asks for knowledge on almost fluent level, as the conversations held build up on each other and sometimes require understanding of idioms and puns as well as language specific rules for grammar you won't always get from using a translation software. While the thought of adding to a page is appreciated the approach of copy-pasting sentences from translation software to wiki is not work, but work for those who have to clean up afterwards. A translation software can be used the way it is supposed to be, namely helping with vocabulary or deep thought requiring sentences, but I am assuming that the editor is second guessing and overviewing before finishing an edit. Editors without knowledge of the language can't do that however, which is why I can't support any form of machine based translation.  10:13, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Wave (talk) 13:32, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

H2whoa Band Members name?
Is there any way that we could find band member names based on OKUTOPASUTAKO and NAGAREHANASANGO? It seems like they're both long enough to be a first name and a last name, but we don't have any more evidence (I think). Wave (talk) 17:48, 1 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Those are definitely just their species. OKUTOPASUTAKO is a combination of "OKUTOPASU" (a transliteration of "Octopus") and "TAKO" ("Octopus" in Japanese), confirming the left band member is an octoling."NAGAREHANA SANGO" is the Japanese name of anchor coral, which the right band member seems to be based off of. 18:00, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I hope that we get the band members names soon, though, because I really need lore for them now.
 * aggressive introverting* Wave (talk) 18:22, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * We'll probably get the names of the members through Splatoon Base when it next updates, so keep a look out for that! You'll probably gonna be waiting a while, though, because we still don't have the names of the Damp Socks members haha. Hopefully it'll update when Side Order comes out. 18:29, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Side Order - Maybe trailer at Nintendo Live? Frankly, I've just given up at this point. :( Wave (talk) 18:34, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Daybreaker Anthem?
If I remember correctly, the song listed above was found in the files of the Version 5.0.0 update for Splatoon 3. This song seems to be made by deep cut & is 5 minutes in length. I cannot find an exact source stating the credibility of this but I do know that the song has been uploaded on external sites quite a bit.

I was wondering if this should be added or not yet, and if we did, would { {Leak}} or { {Future}} be used?VibeCat (talk) 21:13, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * It was requested for deletion per the leaks policy. Once it actually releases, we will add it back to the site. Trig Jegman - 21:32, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Alright, thanks for the clarification. The last thing I'd want to do is make a page that is against the policy! VibeCat (talk) 21:35, 4 September 2023 (UTC)