Talk:Shiver

Source for gender

Do we have a source for Shiver's gender? Let's not make twitter claims from randoms the factual basis for the character Pinkolol16 (talk) 05:56, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

The person who’s changing it is a VANDAL and must be blocked. I have already left a message on Shahar’s talk page and on the Inkipedia discord. OrderSquid38 (talk) 05:59, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

It seems the Portuguese Nintendo twitter account uses "pela" to refer to shiver, which is the femenine form of "por".

I don't know if this wiki takes other languages as canon or waits until the English version confirms. RollForItto (talk) 16:25, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

The wiki includes information & sources data from all languages. –Eli (talk) 08:34, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Gender

All, please stop accusing good-faith editors as vandals. Admins are not going to block editors who are acting in good-faith.

We should cite our sources, yes the "obvious" included. One viewpoint is not the only viewpoint, for example it is not obvious that Shiver is female as their white top is a bandage which would indicate transmasc. In future, please start a discussion on Discord or on the talkpage.

We may want to move to using "Pronouns" instead of "Gender" on character infoboxes.

Regardless, I have yet to see any pronouns for Shiver in any material, and until we have a good citation, I do not want Inkipedia to confirm a gender (and be wrong) Slate Talk Contribs 11:03, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

I’m fairly certain that Shiver is female. Most fans have called her "she" and "her", and her Spanish name is "Megan". Nintendo hasn’t explicitly confirmed this yet, but I do believe she’s female. WolfTamer File:S2 Icon Callie 3.png 11:52, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Understood, however the French localization uses "Pasquale" which is masculine, rather than "Pasquala" which would indicate feminine. So it appears that we cannot infer from the localizations either. Let's wait until we have confirmation from a Nintendo source. Slate Talk Contribs 12:07, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Pasquale is pretty rare and used, just like the more common Pascale, neutraly. Pasquala isn't french as far as I know.

Given we yet have very little in the way of actual dialogue and only English, French and German use gender-neutral names (all of which are secondary languages), I feel like the section should be purged of theorycrafting until further information is given, and replaced with a statement about the current lack of information while the page continues using "they/them" as per the wiki rules (and common sense).

Talk should continue to happen in the Talk page though as we learn more and more, and the claim DDdreamer heard about feminine pronoun in japanese would be interesting to verify Raykable (talk) 02:27, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

I think it would be alright to get rid of the 'gender' section in the infoboxes, but I don't think it should be replaced with a section for pronouns because they can already be seen from their use in the article.  GX_64 (talk)  12:14, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

If other users would like a pronoun section to be added I am completely fine with it, I just think it is a little bit redundant since the pronouns are already there  GX_64 (talk)  14:11, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Pronouns would work!! It is important to know that pronouns don’t equal gender so I feel like we should have both gender and pronouns (ex. Marina, Gender: female Pronouns: She/her) I would also like to say that we NEED to leave Shiver’s pronouns as they/them and gender as unspecified because in most languages (besides french) there is no words that indicate a specific gender!! (Question though are the masculine terms in french used when you don’t know someone’s gender? From what I know I don’t think the language has a lot of gender neutral terms) But when we get the pronouns and gender we can change it!! Just because the past idols have been female DOESN’T MEAN SHIVER IS!! So guys please don’t change their gender and pronouns to female and she/her!! We can do that if they are confirmed female!! Oddlildude (talk)File:AnemoneNo1.jpeg 02:54, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

So I know this isn't a hard confirmation, but I heard she uses the pronoun "uchi", which is one of the most feminine ones in japanese. Could anyone check the japanese subs and confirm? DDdreamer (talk) 08:22, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

This seems to have already been added into the article by someone else, but yes, per the Japanese Direct, Shiver uses "uchi" which is generally (increasingly!) used by younger women. There's also discussion of this below. –Eli (talk) 08:32, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

I think it would be much less controversial and unbiased if the gender section included a counterargument for her lack of gender, such as how her body shape, voice, names in several languages, and clothing are all explicitly feminine. Additionally, her Sarashi is also a traditionally female piece of clothing, often used with a kemono to bind breasts for traditional Japanese dancers. I don't think this is 100% proof that shes female, but the way the article is written currently seems to be a bit biased towards the conclusion that her gender is unclear.

I will agree that some of the edits seem to be a bit petty, but ultimately reasonable given the standards present for every other female character in the series. I wish people could have a more civil and productive discussion about this. Rixor14 (talk) 03:33, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

In the Japanese direct, at about 28:32 when showcasing the three way splatfests Shiver’s dialogue that appears 「あんさんら、ようやってはるねぇウチが背中押したるさかい、おきばりやす〜！」(translated to something like “You guys are doing great! I've got your back, just hang in there.”) uses the feminine personal pronoun 「うち」(uchi). It’s written using katakana 「ウチ」which is generally used for emphasis similarly to how English uses italic or bold fonts. Uchi is almost exclusively used by girls and women (particularly in the kansai region, and Shiver speaks with a heavy Kyoto dialect). The only time it’s used by men is in certain contexts expressing something belonging to your family/houshold, which isn’t being done here.Translucent Ink (talk) 02:06, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

To me, that "uchi" reads more as an indication that the speaker is using Kansai-ben (as do the "ansanra" and the "okibariyasu" in the same line and several more in other places, see my latest edits on the article) than that they are female. "Uchi" is also a far less decidedly female pronoun than, say, Pearl's "atashi".

In addition, if you look at the Splatfest announcement dialogue, Shiver uses the pronoun "Onore" there, which is in a similar status but from the male side - and is also very archaic. In general, Shiver has some very interesting speech patterns in what little we've seen - if we see over time that despite their gender not being confirmed directly they consistently use a specific personal pronoun in their Japanese text, I'll personally make sure to add a note about it and about what what it implies (gender and/or personality) in terms of yakuwarigo. Inkrid (talk) 21:53, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

it's bit trivial thing, but strictly speaking "onore" in possessive case is not kansai-ben dialect nor exclusively used by men. "onore no tamashii o kobushi ni yadoshi ~" is kinda cliché and generally used in all Japan.

so, in a nut shell, Shiver's gender is not ascertainable from this.

it's true Shiver's appearance is feminine and speaks in womanly Kyoto dialect, but it's not the proof.

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onnagata

It may not related with Shiver, but "there's such culture in Kabuki". Azoth (talk) 23:44, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

I asked about the use of "onore" in r/translator, and the responses I got said it's pretty unlikely that "onore" is intended as a first-person pronoun in this case, because that usage is so archaic and wouldn't fit the tone of the rest of the line. They said it's more likely to be an indefinite pronoun, like "one" or "oneself". (This is consistent with the official English translation, which just says "a triumphant fist", not "my triumphant fist".) So the masculinity of the first-person usage might not be relevant here. Gomtuu (talk) 17:26, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I slightly edited the section to add in additional notes regarding Kansai-ben dialect & Japanese first-person pronouns, to remove some redundancy, and to rephrase the ungrammatical line regarding sarashi. The section says to leave a note here so – done. –Eli (talk) 08:32, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Theory on gender

I think that Shiver is female because of her eyebrows. It is (probably) well-known that female and male octolings have different eyes, with the female ones having a point at the bottom outer corner. If you look at any example of octolings, you can also see that the female ones universally (as far as I've seen) have shorter eyebrows. This has led me to conjecture that the smaller eyebrows indicate female, (it also applies to inklings), and therefore Shiver is female. Just a theory though. Wilh3lm (talk) 00:36, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

As much as I believe Shiver is female, we do not have any evidence from Nintendo that she is. OrderSquid38 (talk) 00:37, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Eyebrows don’t really indicate gender. Yes, the octolings and inklings did do that in the first two games but now you can customize the eyebrows!! So now a boy inkling can have small eyebrows and a girl inkling can have thick eyebrows!! In real life you don’t walk up to someone and say they are a boy because of their eyebrows!! (I’m very sorry if I came off rude!! I understand where you’re coming from a little bit but I wanna let ya know this!!) Oddlildude (talk)File:AnemoneNo1.jpeg 03:11, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Here's the thing. Literally every single known example *including the customization screen* shows a clear distinction between the "styles" with long and short eyebrows, and the short eyebrows on octolings are always (afaik) shown in with the known eye corners. Even different eyebrow variants are most likely still limited, although there may be similar "long" and "short" types. Wilh3lm (talk) 10:23, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Forgive me if this is a bit out-of-line, but if I can make a suggestion, I don't think the exclamation points in your posts are sending the message you want them to send. I'm sure it wasn't your intention, but to me, that makes your speech read as a bit overly-confident and passive aggressive. I would recommend trying to take a more professional tone when dealing with issues like this in the future, you'd be surprised how far it goes when it comes to reasoning with people and having an overall better discussion. Rixor14 (talk) 03:43, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Can we lock the page?

Someone keeps changing shiver’s gender to female and pronouns to she/her so can we please lock the page if possible and have an admin or bureaucrat edit it so they/them is used and the gender is set as Unspecified?? Oddlildude (talk)File:AnemoneNo1.jpeg 03:14, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

My edits are in good faith. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ShiverisFemale (talk • contribs) 03:38, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

• Whether good faith or not; this has become disruptive as well as spurning some negative behavior from other as a result. It is counterproductive to be in a cycle of people reverting each other. Disagreements should be respectfully discussed and settled through reaching some kind of consensus. In this case, we already had a sysop come along and place a comment stating to not change the text in the infobox until we had a credible source cited. And regardless of the infobox or whatever the factually accurate answer for that is, there was no justification given for removing the section of the article documenting the notably unusual manner that this character has been described to us.
  Until everyone can be respectful and productive, the page should be protected. —Ikaheishi (talk) 04:30, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
  • I added the protection notice!! Hopefully soon an admin or bureaucrat will see and protect the page!! (If the protection is removed please put it back up! just search protection templates and ya should find it!!) Oddlildude (talk)File:AnemoneNo1.jpeg 04:53, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree on the idea of locking the page. One form of the page utilizes information to reach a logical conclusion, but many edits are removing this without meeting the same standard of evidence, and worst of all being repeatedly made without discussion amid repeated deletion of the steps taken to reach a conclusion. If an attempt to ignore the process of consensus is going to be a repeated issue then limiting options to encourage discussions to take priority is a good idea. Talons235 (talk) 05:23, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Edit warring is not acting in good-faith. Creating a new account solely to put your point across rather than discussing with your fellow editors is not good-faith (and I strongly suspect sockpuppeting too, which is against our established policies). I've protected the page. Slate Talk Contribs 06:55, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you slate!! It really stinks we have to do this!! I dunno why people think we’re wrong to have the gender as unspecified!! Even if Shiver looks like a girl to some that doesn’t mean they are!! We are playing it safe because there hasn’t been any gendered terms in any language (I checked with french and the masculine terms ARE used for when you don’t know someone’s gender) Oddlildude (talk)File:AnemoneNo1.jpeg 14:21, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Definitely. Likewise, even if Shiver does dress androgynously, that does not mean that they are not female. But the only evidence we have from sources is a seemingly intentional lack of gendered terms. I'm sure we'll all look back on this moment and either have a good laugh about it or realise we accidentally stumbled on something. Slate Talk Contribs 16:01, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Signature colour

Hello everyone, I was wondering if it has been stated officially that Shiver's signature colour is blue? Because if not, I'd argue that it's purple (with a heavy blue undertone). The background here¹ is purple (Big Man's is red, Frye's is yellow – both their respective colours) and Shiver's top is also purple, while the hair is purple and blue. Additionally, purple is in line with the game's colour theme, so it would make sense (Frye = yellow, Shiver = purple).

However, if it's just me who sees it like that, then I shall accept that without a problem! :) I just thought it's purple.

¹https://i.imgur.com/zvugwWl.jpeg

SLATE O (talk) 04:32, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

I would say that it is neither blue nor purple, but rather a variety of blue-violet. Aside from splatfest teams, purple ink seems to be the hallmark of the Octarian forces. — Ikaheishi (talk) 05:00, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

I completely forgot about the existence of the term "violet". :D Should we use blue-violet in that case?

SLATE O (talk) 07:43, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Seems more violet but I think the blue comes from the splatfest colours (blue/yellow/red). I like the game pallette idea though. Slate Talk Contribs 08:41, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Edit request

As I'm currently unable to edit anything on here due to the page-lock, I would like to make a short request.

Can someone please swap the order of the kanji/romaji and hànzì/pinyin in the "meaning" section of the name table.

Initially, I put pinyin first because I saw someone do the same with romaji in Japanese. However, I thought about it again, and these (meaning romaji/pinyin) should always be second to the characters, as the romanized writing system mostly serves as help for foreign-language speakers to read the words.

These should be swapped:

1.

From fuka (鱶, Japanese for "shark") → From 鱶 (fuka, Japanese for "shark")

2.

From shā yú (鯊魚, Chinese for "shark"). → From 鯊魚 (shā yú, Chinese for "shark").

I'd really appreciate the help! :)

SLATE O (talk) 08:09, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Fuka is less common word than Same for shark. It reminds most Japanese of fukahire (shark fin). The number of species of sharks whose names suffixed with ‒buka is less than those with ‒zame.

Tats-u (talk) 14:25, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

"Pascale" is not necessarily a female given name, it's also written "Pascal" for men, which is also more commonly used, though the E at the end of Pasquale most-likely comes from the shark called Squale Inky Boi (talk) 13:13, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Nintendo Life article and the lack of concrete info.

Yeah, I think something needs to be done about the misinformation being spread by this article. Nintendo Life recently wrote an article about this speculation, and it uses text directly from this wiki article as evidence. I'm aware that this article meerly states that the gender is unknown, but a lot of people have taken that to mean they are overtly non-binary, which is an incredibly dangerous precident to set. If anyone remembers what happened with Flick and CJ from Animal Crossing, I think you can understand why. Headcanons are great, but I don't think its healthy to stretch canon in order for it to fit them.

I mentioned in a different comment, but I think it would serve this article well to include text explaining why the character is likely to be female, as to avoid seeming biased and focused on theory-crafting. Things like her body type, names in various languages, cultural roots, and voice actor, really seem to indicate, at the very least, a female lean. Not to mention the lack of any definitive, cited sources for the idea that her gender is purposefully ambiguous.

I'm more than willing to accept how some fans feel about the character, and I understand that it makes them feel more comfortable to imagine a character's identity to be closer to theirs, but I really don't think this should be in the way of actual canonical info. If this conclusion does end up being true, then thats one thing. But as of right now I don't think the default assumption should be "Deliberately ambiguous" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rixor14 (talk • contribs)

No. The article says that the gender is unspecified & unknown. It is up to the reader if they want to extrapolate from there. The wiki has not confirmed any gender or agender. Once again, we are not confirming Shiver if is female until have confirmation from source material. If the source material reveals that Shiver is female then great. If not, also great. Either way, it'll be a nice bit of trivia to add in the future. It is deliberately ambiguous because it requires purposeful effort to not gender a character in other gendered languages such as French and Japanese, as explained in the article. We are not assuming here, and in fact, trying to theory craft Shiver being female because of the voice actor (women voice male characters all the time - that's a skill of voice acting) and "her body type" (this reads andro to me and at least one editor has read Shiver as male in the history) and names (this works for non-binary and transmasc individuals) is pushing more of an agenda than sticking to the facts of Shiver being unspecified.

You raise a good point that we have not cited any of the gender paragraph, however this would be proving the negative. A source has not yet come to light where any of the material in any language has gendered Shiver. Yet, we can prove the pronouns used for Frye and Big Man, and we should do this.

We are not responsible for what Nintendo Life publish and like all news sources, a primary goal is to rack up engagement metrics, and so a more "out there" title will garner more clicks. Slate Talk Contribs 17:32, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

The current state of this page is not a Inkipedia-head-canon or theory of Shiver being non-binary. Every language supported by Splatoon 3 has been analyzed multiple times and shows, or better yet, shows no indication of how Shiver is addressed. The current amount of information is small, as Shiver and Deep Cut have only been known for a few days and how this page is currently written cannot be considered misinformation. Like mentioned it is not our responsibility how other sites, be it posts on social media, online news articles or other wikis handle this information. Your comment is respected but we will only accept statements from Nintendo or in-game confirmations as facts and will update the pages as soon as new information becomes available.   Perfectionist   (talk) 17:55, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, i understand that it's not normally you as the editors responsibility to determine what is gleaned from the article by readers or other outlets, but I do think the article could use a few more sources, specifically for the conclusion that the ambiguity in the text is intentional, and not just a messy translation job. To me, the fact that most of the names in various languages are female-given names seems to contradict the conclusion that she's intentionally non-gendered. I understand these things aren't as clear cut to some people as they are to others, but it just seems like these are the principles of character design the series has used for its female characters in the past, so to me it seems like a logical assumption for most fans to say that she fits that archetype. To my knowledge, this hasn't been an issue for past characters with overtly feminine names in multiple languages, such as past idols, despite no official pronouns being used to describe them upon initial reveal (Again, to my knowledge).

I appreciate the response, and I appreciate the effort to keep the article ambiguous. I just think there are a few things that could be improved, and a few sources that probably should have been provided before the gender section of the article was published as to avoid confusion. Something to prove that the language used to describe Shiver is different from any other female or male character in the series. And also that this discrepancy is deliberately about gender, rather than other potentially ambiguous parts of the character's personality. I don't know much about japanese, but I do know there are contexts where pronouns can be ambiguous that don't necessarily mean someone is ambiguously gendered.

To me, phrases like "Appears to be" seem to be based on opinion rather than fact. A better phrasing, I think, would be something along the lines of "Some fans have taken this to mean this" or "This could mean this" rather than a declaration of what seems to be the editor's takeaway from the information, at least, assuming there isn't a definitive source to say that this was Nintendo's intention, which I personally doubt there is. Rixor14 (talk) 18:53, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Alrighty, we can work with that :)

Let's add citations for a) The pronouns for Big Man and Frye, b) The usage of passive & avoidance for Shiver's pronouns (examples in various languages), and c) Remove the "appears to be" and any other weasel words. Agree that we need this to be concrete with no speculation on either side if we're having a hard line of waiting for source confirmation. Slate Talk Contribs 19:04, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Alright, thank you. That should go a long way in clearing up some misconceptions about this whole situation, I definitely appreciate it. Thanks for being respectful, and stay fresh. Rixor14 (talk) 19:25, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Gender Officially Confirmed!

I just recently watched GameXplain's "12 NEW Splatoon 3 Details" video, and they stated that Nintendo has confirmed that Shiver is female and uses she/her pronouns! Can the article be updated and the gender section be deleted to compensate for this? Or update it accordingly? Sincerely, P.J. GT(talk) 13:38, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Not that I do not trust GameXplain, but can we use it as a source? Shouldn't we get this information directly from Nintendo themselves? Islar74 (talk) 14:11, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

The Verge is another source. They say they asked Nate Bihldorff. Gomtuu (talk) 16:09, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

It should probably be updated. Given the confirmation, are we still comfortable saying that Nintendo "avoided referring to Shiver in ways that would require inflecting adjectives or verbs for gender"? The word "avoided" implies intent, and unless someone from Nintendo states that they tried to hide Shiver's gender at first, I'm not sure if we'll ever have evidence of that intent.

In general, is the information in the Gender section still noteworthy? Perhaps it could be condensed to a trivia item that says something like, "An initial shortage of gender-specific references in marketing materials led some to speculate that Shiver might be non-binary." Gomtuu (talk) 17:02, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

I say that it should be kept, but if that doesn’t work, a trivium piece should be added.--MissDelibirda (talk) 17:20, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm in agreement here. The gender section is very large for something that ended up being a pretty cut-and-dry issue. I think it should be condensed down significantly, or like you mentioned, be turned into a trivia item. Vallaluna 08:32, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Last time we talked about this we settled on leaving it for some days and slowly condense and move it to Trivia. Like how this section slowly got expanded it will slowly be condensed too.   Perfectionist   (talk) 11:50, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that the person who "confirmed" Shiver as female is Nate Bihldorff, who has previously censored an LGBT identity in localization (Vivian from Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door. She is canonically a transgender woman in Japanese, but changed to cis in America.) This should probably be noted somewhere on the page? Nidoskull (talk) 12:56, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

There are six people credited with the North American localization of Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door (Rich Amtower, Nate Bihldorff, Thomas Connery, Scott Richey, Bill Trinen, and Erik Peterson), plus two localization managers (Jeff Miller and Leslie Swan). Do we have any evidence that Bihldorff himself was involved in that decision? And even if we do, that game was released 18 years ago, and a person's views can change. I think we should be very cautious about making an accusation like this. Gomtuu (talk) 13:43, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Since the gender is confirmed, shouldn't the page finally be unlocked again?

People cannot argue that she is non-binary if it's been confirmed right?

If people keep griefing ban them from making edits - Hedwig7s (talk) 19:17, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Small change to first sentence in Gender section

I was considering changing "Shiver's gender has not been initially revealed in any official media" to "Shiver's gender was not initially revealed in any official media". It is easier to read, but would it be correct since it still hasn't been revealed in any official media?  GX_64 (talk)  01:22, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

It seems to me that this sentence (with either tense) is only accurate if the Portuguese tweet doesn't count as official media. Is there a reason why it shouldn't count? It might have made sense to be cautious about that tweet when it seemed like an outlier, but I don't think it makes sense to do so now.

Perhaps the page should say "in any official English-language media", and the part about it being "consistent across all languages" should be removed or qualified.) Gomtuu (talk) 04:54, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree that that seems better  GX_64 (talk)  05:30, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Can we just erase the Gender section?

I don't understand why this obsession about her gender that editors have to devote a whole column about it. As soon as she was revealed with the slightest ambiguity, everyone freaks out about non binary and stuff. The Gender box in InfoboxCharacter should have been enough.Retrobot (talk) 13:31, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

There is a column about it because Inkipedia serves as a central place for Splatoon information. As it was (and still is: read up this page^) a contentious topic, the section clears up misgivings and clarifies and summarises points made on all sides. The gender bit in the infobox until very recently was "Unspecified" with a link to the Gender section. Simply stating "unspecified", "non-binary", or "female" was not a sustainable position for the wiki, and one of the reasons for this page being autoconfirmed protected was the frequent changing of the infobox. It was changed because of a confirmation from a Nintendo Exec in Nintendo of America, and even this is controversial (again, see above).

Regardless, we won't be erasing an entire section of very well-researched effort completely and it'll be going into trivia once we have more in-game examples.

Slate Talk Contribs 13:57, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

I was thinking of moving it into the trivia section myself (I always like exploring the subtleties of different languages), so I'm glad I checked the talk page before I made any edits. To be honest, I kind of find it funny how there was this big debate on her gender and meanwhile this whole time I could only think about why she had human-esque eyes. FOCUS TREE (talk) 18:22, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

I personally think we should just remove the section on her gender, to be honest. Doesn't seem like it's really necessary anymore. Also yeah, I had the same thought about her eyes being weird. O_O ArivakiVA (talk) 23:26, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Maybe mentioning the community conflict being a big thing at the time Shiver were revealed would be a nice compromice. But that's just my opinion. Milchik (talk) 00:17, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

I don't believe there needs to be any such compromise. The community conflict isn't exactly relevant information for the sake of this wiki. I'm not sure even a line of trivia is even necessary at this point unless something new comes out, as the conflict did end up amounting to speculation. The wiki page should be comprised of factual and relevant information, and while that line can ebb and flow, the controversy regarding Shiver's gender is for the time being, vestigial at best. Unless evidence crops up of Shiver not being necessarily female in Japanese, I see no need to maintain this section of the page altogether outside of sentimentality for the situation. RammyRamRamRam (talk) 00:23, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Fair enough. Milchik (talk) 00:30, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree with this. Most of the information is misleading in the first place.(and was since day one) Savoir (talk) 11:06, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

I disagree with the notion that it wasn't ever factual relevant information. It's just outlived its purpose now that the game's out, and we have more information to go off of. The piece about Shiver's Gender was well put together, well-founded, and well-researched with the information we had at the time. Now there's more to go off of, I don't believe this remains true. If not deleted outright, I'd think this information would be better served as its own page, or perhaps a page that discusses gender in splatoon in general, documenting the removal of explicit gender labels in character creation for Splatoon 3 and similar content. RammyRamRamRam (talk) 11:11, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

It wasn't well-founded or well-researched for reasons I posted below. Most of it was misleading, and-or wrong. There were a bunch of people who made misguided, and inaccurate counter points(like mentioning the usage of "Onore" and "Yakuwarigo" when they're completely irrelevant.) Since the people making the page and the people in this discussion didn't have decent enough knowledge of other languages to know which information was inaccurate they just tried shoving all of it into the section to be "fair". There was never any good reason to believe she might be non-binary. The only thing that actually hinted she might not be female is her eyes, and that isn't even mentioned in the gender section.(though more likely than not assuming that the little triangle that female Octolings have beneath their eyes is part of the lore was just as inaccurate as it was to assume inklings aren't meant to have tongues).

Regardless, the page is no longer locked so I removed it. It's a pretty easy reversion if anyone wants to re-add it later. I only hope they have good reason to do so. Savoir (talk) 13:42, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

You said you erased it? Well, apparently either you didn't, or someone reverted it. I dunno why. :/ ArivakiVA (talk) 21:14, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

I think someone might have reverted it because of what @Slate mentioned. I agree that it should probably just be moved to trivia, especially after everyone devoted so much time to research. ArivakiVA (talk) 21:16, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Someone reverted it. Their explanation was "It was a major part of discussions about her at the time, it should be chronicled". I contacted them about it already, but they haven't gotten back to me. I'm not really sure how to go about getting this settled for good. I'd like to put it to a vote if it's possible, but I'm not sure how to go about doing that. Otherwise, I'd like to just convince an admin to step in and remove it(but to be honest I'm feeling too lazy at the moment to try). I feel like most people would agree that it's time for that gender section to be removed. The discussion has already been chronicled here in the discussion section. It doesn't need to be on the main page as well.

However, I'm not going to start another editing war. I erased it, and someone reverted it. Unless we can come to an agreement it'll just be a continual back and forth. Savoir (talk) 22:03, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

The only way I can think of settling this is probably a vote of some sort, or asking admins for their opinion. It might sound dumb, but it's all I can really think of. And @Savoir-san is right, if we keep erasing it, it's just gonna go back and forth. ArivakiVA 21:58, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Overhaul over Time

This Page got many edits over time due to a uncertianty which lead to the Gender section as we have it now. There were many talks about adding to it and removing it entirely after confirmation, that the pronoun avoidance over multiple languages was indeed a huge coincidence. As someone with a "neutral" perspective I took a look and made a list of what should change.

• Gender to Trivia
  • The whole section can be compressed to a larger trivia point with sub points.
  • Things like the talk about the other band members genders being confirmed are unnecessary now.
• Introduction in other languages
  • Frye's and Big Man's page feature those too now and they should stay. However, linking to literally every Splatoon 3 Direct is probably a bit too much.

"Why should the section be changed to Trivia?"
1st: The Gender section was supposed to be the explanation of why the section in the Infobox is Unspecified. There was a huge debate with multiple arguments from many perspectives which made the Gender section bigger and bigger to Inform about that state.
2nd: While the section is called "Gender", it is nothing more than Trivia, a "nice to know fact". It neither gives us explanation about Shiver ingame nor does it cover multiple aspects over multiple sentences. The opposite is the case where one subject is covered with too much text. Additionally (now personally speaking), a Trivia point is not supposed to be bigger than main sections like "Appearance", "Personality and Traits" and future sections I can't name yet due to spoilers.
I am open for other peoples input and the change will not occur immediately.
But this is not a question about "if", but about "how and when".   Perfectionist   (talk) 15:32, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

As mentioned above, wait for the game's release, we'll have more context and background from story mode. Once that happens, we can clear up an unanswered questions of coincidence/confirm for America only/is this the same in JP version etc etc. I reject the notion of removing detail because its section is too big compared to others: that means it either needs summarising and its details moving to a sub-page, or the other sections need expanding. Slate Talk Contribs 15:57, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Of course. I somehow forgot to mention that I want to wait for game launch too and go from there. The goal is not removing but shortening and moving it to Trivia later. The work put into it shall not be disrespected but we would lie if we said that this current state is perfect.   Perfectionist   (talk) 16:06, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Now that the game has been released, I think the best thing to do would be to look at the pronouns Shiver is referred to in the Japanese version. In the english version, I've seen Shiver be referred to with she/her pronouns consistently. If in the Japanese version of the game shiver is referred using female pronouns or pronouns mainly used by females consistently, I think it would be safe to assume that Shiver is female considering the other evidence. I'm not against the idea of Shiver not having a gender, but I just don't think it would end up being canon if not supported by the Japanese version. If in the Japanese version Shiver does have implications of not having a gender, I think then would be the appropriate time to use the previous evidence and change things.

I don't have the resources to see what Shivers pronouns are in Japanese but if anyone does please tell me!! I'm honestly really curious on what her canon gender is, and her Japanese pronouns would say a lot.

( also I don't really know how to use wiki pages, I'm just really intrigued by this discussion and generally inkipedia and really want to know how the Japanese version refers to her considering it would be canon and wanted to suggest for it to be looked at, or adding it to the wiki) Splatoonified (talk) 18:03, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

In the game she almost exclusively uses "uchi" which tends to have a feminine connotation. She uses "onore" once which can have a masculine connotation and it can also mean "yourself" in an archaic tone. Here is the only time where she uses "onore" and the english translation is fairly correct. A more literal translation of "おのれの魂" would be "your soul" or "a vision of you", so she's not talking about herself.

At this point we can positively say she's 100% female even in Japan. InklerPotato (talk) 14:38, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

To add to InklerPotato's post, while Shiver is clearly intended to be female in Japanese, the Japanese pronouns actually aren't that important. Frye uses the personal pronoun "Washi" which is masculine speech used by the elderly.(sharp contrast to her actual age and gender) Mr. Coco, uses the personal pronoun "Atashi" which is usually used by young girls and a sharp contrast to his muscular, chest hair exposing male self. Pronouns just aren't that important in Japanese. That said, Shiver continues to use the feminine pronoun Uchi, which is the same pronoun that Marie uses in Japanese. Her fan dancing is also typically associated with females. Savoir (talk) 14:34, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

At this point would it be fine to remove it on the grounds of it no longer being relevant and most of the information there-in being misleading and-or wrong? I'm not even sure if a trivia entry is justified since speculation isn't really important information to Shiver's character in the here and now, if it ever was. The entire discussion is still chronicled here, and in much greater detail than on the main page. It doesn't need to be on the main page as well. I've seen multiple people in favor of getting rid of it entirely, so if there's a way we can put it to a vote or something, then I'd be all for it. Savoir (talk) 22:13, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Shiver's Gender In Retrospect

Note: If I use all caps it's for emphasis on important parts, not because I'm yelling.

In retrospect I think all of the stuff about her gender being ambiguous seem to simply be a "Jumped the gun" sort of situation. I've been watching this page from the start, and to be frank it was simply a bunch of misunderstandings and there was never any reason to believe that Nintendo was keeping her gender ambiguous. For starters there was this line.

"When Shiver was first revealed in the Splatoon 3 Direct, neither the presentation nor other promotional material (such as the announcement dialogue for the Splatoon 3 Splatfest World Premiere and references to Deep Cut on the official website) specifically referred to Shiver's gender. This was consistent across all languages, and text in languages that require it (French, Italian, and Spanish) did not refer to Shiver in ways that would require inflecting adjectives or verbs for gender."

This originally said that her gender wasn't alluded to in any official publication in any language. This was later revealed to be false, when you looked at Nintendo Portugal's tweet that did allude to her gender. Honestly speaking this whole line should have been removed entirely since the premise for it being there was no longer valid.

Then there's this line.

" This did not apply to Shiver's bandmates Frye and Big Man, who were referred to explicitly as female and male, respectively."

It's kind of misleading. For one thing neither Frye or Big Man were referred to explicitly as male or female in English or Japanese, only in certain other languages. Since the same applied to Shiver via Nintendo Portugal there IS NO CONTRAST.

This line:

"The Japanese text did not have Shiver use any common first-person pronouns that traditionally connote gender (such as atashi or boku)."

Was written before people pointed out her use of the pronoun "Uchi" which is in fact a feminine pronoun, as well as being the same personal pronoun that Marie uses in Japanese. But furthermore it's very misleading and kind of irrelevant even if it was true. Neither Frye or Big Man used any pronouns in Japanese, so not only did Shiver use a feminine pronoun, but she's the ONLY ONE who used a gender-hinting pronoun in Japanese. In retrospect it's even more obvious that this was jumping the gun, since we now know that Frye uses the personal pronoun "Washi" which is typically used by OLD MEN. Shiver, from a Japanese perspective, is much more feminine than Frye, so it would have made just as much sense to question Frye's gender as it did to question Shiver's. It's also very strange to believe that pronouns, in Japanese, are more important than given name when it comes to understanding a character's gender. It's very common for female characters to use the pronoun "boku" and the buff(very masculine) Mr. Coco who runs the shoe shop uses the personal pronoun "Atashi" in Japanese, but he's still clearly male. The use or lack of use of gender defining pronouns in Japanese just isn't evidence for much in general.

" "onore"[2] (an archaic pronoun used poetically meaning "oneself" or "yourself"). In game, "onore" was used only in one occasion, in which Shiver talks about a general "oneself", rather than using the pronoun for herself."

This one was changed a lot, but it originally said that "Onore" is a masculine pronoun... It's not. Not only is it not a masculine pronoun, but in modern speech it's not even a personal pronoun. I appreciate that this section has been fixed to be more accurate, but now that the original wording has been changed it's hard to understand how the usage of the word onore is even relevant at all.(I should note that, if we're being completely honest, her usage of the word was never relevant to discussion of gender.) I understand why the sentence is here since I've been watching this page, but anyone coming here later without context will likely wonder why the word was even mentioned.

"These pronouns may be portraying Shiver's Kansai dialect through the use of yakuwarigo ("role language")."

I'm not sure, and never was sure why "Yakuwarigo" was brought up. If you read the first sentence of that wikipedia article it states "Yakuwarigo (Japanese: 役割語, "role language") is a style of language, often used in works of fiction, that conveys certain traits about its speaker such as age, GENDER, and class."

Why was it brought up to suggest that her use of a feminine pronoun might NOT be related to gender?

Most official social media posts referring to Shiver also made no mention of her gender, except for one Nintendo Portugal message that used "pela", implying Shiver to be female.

Again, it originally stated that NO social media had referenced her gender, which was untrue. Meanwhile, I believe, most social media didn't mention the gender of Frye or Big Man either, so it's not like this is exclusive to Shiver either.

"In contrast, Shiver's bandmates Big Man and Frye were referred to at reveal with terms connoting male and female grammatical gender, respectively. For example, Frye introduces herself in French as "the queen of eels",[4] Spanish as the "[female] marine choreographer",[5] and she uses a feminine definite article in her Portuguese introduction.[6]"

This just sort of sounds untrue, when it comes right after the sentence mentioning that she was in fact referred to with a feminine pronoun by Nintendo Portugal from the start. It's mostly true when it comes to the direct itself, but if this is a contrast, then wouldn't the fact that she's the only character who used a gender hinting pronoun in the Japanese direct be considered just as much of a contrast? It was always more likely that this was simply coincidence, based on how the dialogue was worded, and the fact that the characters rarely spoke directly to each other during the reveal, and were instead talking about the concepts of Rock, Paper, Scissors. It's also worth noting that most foreign language directs were not completely translated, instead substituting English translations during parts.(as well as having an English voice over) The English meanwhile, made no mention of ANY of the character's genders.

"This resulted in speculation about Shiver's gender and the possibility of her being non-binary or ambiguously gendered. However, official sources such as interviews with Nintendo of America executives[7] and the media's preview game access[8] soon clarified that Shiver is female and is referred to using the pronouns "she" and "her" in-game."

No problems with this sentence. It was a bit misleading before when it stated something like "Apparently being intentional it lead to speculation", but that has already been fixed.

The reason I bring all this up is because the gender section just seems... off now. It's still too long, and I don't really think there's a way that it can be edited to where it's not misleading in some fashion or another. The stuff about Japanese pronouns is misleading because it's true for every character. It also generally puts too much stock on the importance of pronouns in Japanese(especially Japanese media) which can mislead people in the future. For the rest of the section it fails to mention that much of the reasons that people speculated about Shiver's gender also applied to her bandmates, and wrongly suggests that their genders were less ambiguous than Shiver's was. I'll grant that in some languages, her gender may have been more ambiguous than her bandmates, but this isn't true for English, and it's actually the opposite in Japanese, where her gender was actually more defined than her bandmates. The gender section also fails to mention how in most languages Shiver was given an explicitly feminine given name, which is just as, if not more so in the case of Japanese, relevant as any lack of gender-defining pronouns. I understand the logic behind leaving the gender section for those who are still confused, but I don't think it should be as long as it is. The added "context" actually just misleads people more than if it wasn't there at all. I think the gender section should simply be shortened to something along the lines of "While there was initially speculation that Shiver may be non-binary it was later clarified by official Nintendo sources that she is female." and a note to "See Discussion" for more information. That would be a lot more helpful than constantly trying to recontextualize debunked information in a way that isn't misleading. Savoir (talk) 14:13, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

I read through this and made a shortened version of the section that tries to fix some of the issues here: User:GX 64/Sandbox.  GX_64 (talk)  10:15, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Which parts did you edit? Savoir (talk) 20:24, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Here is the version I made: modified section. I haven't changed the actual article. There are some notes there with what I changed.  GX_64 (talk)  01:33, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

"She" and "her" pronouns in game

This is regarding the following line: This resulted in speculation about Shiver's gender and the possibility of her being non-binary or ambiguously gendered. However, official sources such as interviews with Nintendo of America executives and the media's preview game access soon clarified that Shiver is female and is referred to using the pronouns "she" and "her" in-game.

To my knowledge these pronouns haven't been used directly in the English version of the game, though I'm unaware of the outcome of non-English localizations. We should note if this part of the statement is untrue as of version 1.1.2. RammyRamRamRam (talk) 06:11, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

They are used in at least one of the Anarchy Splatcast dialogues. I can't remember which one it is right now, but I definitely saw it. If I find it I will let you know.  GX_64 (talk)  06:59, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

I just got one which uses "her". Shiver: Yeah, splatting enemies is cool, but Turf War battles are all about inking turf! Frye: Says the one who's ALWAYS on the front line, tracking her splat count obsessively...  GX_64 (talk)  07:07, 3 October 2022 (UTC)