Talk:Three Wishes

Editing note for "Lyrics" section

"Three Wishes" is perhaps the first Splatoon song to contain fully translated lyrics in addition to "squid" languages. However, I would advise editors not to supply more information than what's provided in the official video. In case people didn't observe from the translated lyrics of "Three Wishes":

1. They are not fully dubbable. This is especially true for Japanese lyrics. While the official English lyrics are written to be dubbable, this is an exception rather than a rule.
2. Certain background lines of the lyrics have no Japanese or English translation.
3. Even if you try to dub the song in English, you would have to remove the background lines or else mixing them with the English lyrics would just sound weird.

One specific point is: Do not associate the translated lyrics with singers. This association is not in the official video and it's better not to give readers an impression that the lyrics can be dubbed (syllable by syllable). Explorer09 (talk) 09:58, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

I have trouble seeing the connection of your undo of the table. It is clearly separating the fictional language from the official English (and other languages) version and is meant to be a more easily visible format compared to the centered text we currently have. The icons for each idol replaced the initials (like "C" for Callie) and the content is a reflection of what is provided from the official video. So unless I am missing something I don't understand your comment.  Perfectionist  (talk) 10:18, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I was just about to mention the issues with ArgentuTA164's table format. It's not I don't like the table presenting the lyrics side by side, but the issues are these:

1. As mentioned in the previous comment, the English translation should not be associated with singer icons.
2. I'm a bit reserved on using singer icons in place of initials, mostly for accessability reasons. If we want to present singer icons, make them templates first. So that any issue with alt text or icon size or whatever can be fixed by tuning the template rather than the pages on the main namespace. --Explorer09 (talk) 10:37, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

2. There is talk about adding the icons to a separate column instead.

1. With what was mentioned in the section above, this issue would be resolved by that.  Perfectionist  (talk) 10:39, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Just to point some more on the icon issue: Now we have these so many inline image syntaxes throughout the lyrics section

[[File:RotM Icon Agent 1.png|30px]][[File:RotM Icon Agent 2.png|30px]][[File:SO Icon Pearl.png|30px]][[File:SO Icon Marina.png|30px]][[File:RotM Icon Shiver.png|30px]][[File:RotM Icon Frye.png|30px]][[File:RotM Icon Big Man.png|30px]]

This would be harder to maintain or edit than the Template:Colored lyrics approach . Since the icons would gonna be used in multiple Lyrics section in multiple pages, I think it's really better to have these become templates first before putting them on the main namespace. Also, I expect these icons have alt text supplied and are not clickable hyperlinks. Explorer09 (talk) 10:54, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Putting the icons in a separate column will make the text easier to read, but I'm not sure how it would show lyrics where there are different singers for different parts in the same row. Could we maybe use numbers?

We could use Template:Icon for the images, which has alt text. {{Icon|RotM|Agent 2|size=30px}} will make an icon like this: .  GX_64 (talk)  11:15, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

1. When singers sing the lyrics only by lines, then putting the icons on the left column of the table might work, but this isn't often the case. When singer sing words within the lines, then we have to use icons inline. Songs like Liquid Sunshine and Three Wishes are all the latter case.

2. I would like any new template for marking the singer lines be as easy to use (in syntaxes) as Template:Colored lyrics, because AFAIK, Template:Colored lyrics were designed for this purpose already and it is better to not have any other way to mark the singer lines.

Perhaps everyone would be happy if we extend Template:Colored lyrics to support icons. But I am against the idea of ditching that template altogether.

3. Just to save everyone's time, here is my proposed approach of the lyrics table. If no one objects, I can merge this to the article page (Explorer09 (talk) 12:59, 4 September 2024 (UTC)).

Three Wishes Lyrics (kana and official Japanese translation)

Kana	Japanese translation (意訳)	(Unofficial) English meaning
C/P/S:ふぁに まてぃり	果てしない
Me/Ma/F:ふぃな しゅうぃら うぃの なふぇ	時間の交差の中で
All:うぇど みしゃだり てゅわり みゅへり	ぼくらは炎をつないでく
C:にゅえの ゆうぇに みふぁなへ	ずっと キミと歩いてた
Me:にょえに きゅうぇの しゅめらへ	いくつもの 奇跡を見てきた
C:みゃれ にゅへら へに のうぇに	はじめは 何もなくて
（P/Ma:ゲニミュシ エニモ）
Me:にゅり みゃれ じゅれにゃ へり のふぇり	アタシたちの後に 道ができて
（S/F/B:ビエンディンニ マハティ）
C/Me:にゅりね まれ みて も みゅりね われ にゅる	誰かの道しるべに アタシたちが なるなんて あの頃 想像できた？
（S/F/B:ワンディ）（P/Ma:ジャスィカズィ ユニュディ）
C/Me:ゆわにゅうぇり わりぬしぇ てゅれりの	この星にまかれた 小さな小さな種
（S/F/B:ワディウェンニ オ）
C:ゆうぇに Me:ゆうぇに C/Me:にゅらふぇらひ	星の光 キラキラリ
C/Me:てゅるり みゅらふぃ なねはんに うぇのうぇに	幾億年前からの メッセージ
（P/Ma/S/F/B:カン ビコ ゼッティン ダンソ） （P/Ma/S/F/B:ビュロウェ スィンダ レイ）
C:しゅうぇに Me:しゅうぇに C/Me:しゅらへらに	言葉 歴史 キラキラリ
C/Me:てゅるり みゅらい なねはんに うぇのうぇに	想いを伝えるため 受け継がれた唄
（P/Ma/S/F/B:ワンビコラ フェスティン ブラゾ） （P/Ma/S/F/B:バニン ヤソ）
P/Ma:ファニ マティリ フィナ シュウィラ ビノマフェ	果てしない 時間の交差の中で
P/Ma:ウェド ミシャダリ テュワリ ミュヘル	ぼくらは炎をつないでく
P/Ma:ファニ マティリ フィア シュウィラ ウィノナフェ	すれちがう 無限の命のプリズム
P/Ma:ウェド ミシャガリ テュワリ ミュヘニ	きみの輝きを 見つけ出す
P:へい！ わっちゃっぱ ふぉりな げあ さっぱ ろりだん	Hey! ステージをよこしな ロマンチスト 思い出話はカフェでどうぞ
P:せい せい ぱりだぃ にあ らたたた せいべろぅ	そうさアタシは リアリスト 今を生きる つかみ取る
P:どぅ すたぽ びろうぇい ごなわたたと しぇい しぇい	手に入れた 世界の頂点 言わせてもらえば ただの通過点
P:うぃざいちゅ めん？ ふー！ つわっさぃ だうぃ ばにらぅ	叩きつけるぜ Answer ぶち込む 言葉のBanger
Ma:ウェズ ノミ ガラノダイ	ここに来るまで 長い道のり
Ma:ウィヴィロキ フィリドゥ ネスティ	でも辿り着いた 大きな星の光
（C/Me:ぱぱらぱらぱ）
Ma:ハズ ノウェイ ガラドゥダイ	ワタシの心 まるでサテライト
Ma:イズィラバ モラドゥダイ	アナタの重力で グルグル回る
（S/F/B:パパラパラパ）
P:てぃか びぞん りば とぅりおん しゃか らたたちゅら じぞ うぃん	人生クソだの 運がねぇだの それで守れたか？ 自尊心
（C/Me:らんらん に みゅはり にょへり）
（Ma:ダラタタ ダラタタ）（S/F/B:ランランダ ラディ バッタリダ）
P:すたぴの でぃじ りじ りぜ とぅな うぃっか らぴのか ちゃれ きぽん すてぃん	ビビって そつなく つつがなく それで満足？ ビビッドに塗りたくれよ オマエの魂のビートで
（S/F/B:リラ）（C/Me:ららら うぇにや りゅえに）
（Ma:ダラタタタ）（S/F:Ha~）
Ma:ムケカ トゥリニダド フィヤベ？	やりたいこと山積み いつやります？
P:そ ばふぃん！	今だろ！！
P/Ma:ハドゥマナ キャソ バッタン グレロ	重なり合う バイナリースター
P/Ma:チャソ ウィコナリ トゥレロ	何があっても きっと平気さ
（C/Me/S/F/B:ぱらどにゃ わちゃりの みゅてり） （C/Me/S/F/B:うぃどり ふぃざぅ ちゅ）
P/Ma:ハドゥマナ キャソ バッタン グレロ	重なり合う バイナリースター
P/Ma:チャソ ウィコナリ ファンデリ	きみとなら ずっと無敵さ
（C/Me/S/F/B:ぱらどにゃ わちゃりの みゅてり） （C/Me/S/F/B:しがう ちゅる）
S/F/B:ファニ マティンリ フィナ シュウィラ ビンノマフェ	果てしない 時間の交差の中で
S/F/B:ウェド ミチャンダリ テュワンディ ミュチェンニ	ぼくらは炎をつないでく
S/F/B:ファニ マティンリ ウィナ シュウィラ ビンノ ナフェ	ほとばしる 無限の命の鼓動
S/F/B:ウェド ミチャンデニ リュワンナ ミュチェンディ	響き合って 強く輝く
F:タラディン タラディン タラディン チェレダリ	目の前に広がる フロンティア
（P/Ma:ダリ）（S:だり）
F:ミカチェン ミカチェン ミカチェン ダラピンド	とめどなく湧き出る アイディア
（C/Me/S:ぴんど）
F:ハラデュケ ビタリ ニャユデ ピシャンド	胸の高鳴り 羅針盤にして
（S:にゃゆでぴっしゃんど）
F:マテリンデン パタヌ ペンダ リュディタイ	迷宮 魔窟へ いざカチコミじゃ！
（C/Me:は は は は）
S:よ なてぃゆに わたいな	立ちはだかる魑魅魍魎
（Ma:ナティユニ ワタイナ）（F:ワタイナ）
S:えと ゆらに しゃみちゃちゃ	見事さばいてみせましょか
（C/Me:しゃみちゃ しゃみちゃ）（F:チャビノ ウェンディナゥ）
S:しだりて かんだりや	逆境 苦境は 朝めし前
（Ma:シダリテ カンダリヤ）（F:シダリテ カンダリヤ）
S:わたあて ちむよいよ	最強連合のお出ましや！
（F:チムヨ ホイヨ）
F:ウェンダンディ ノ ケレスパリ	強さのヒミツを知りたいか？
S:かまり ちけても そだんな	決して折れない 砕けない絆
F:マピェンニ パティ マチャパテニ	3×3×3で 333万倍じゃ！
S:はいな うちゆさ	未来ひらく 黄金のカギ
S/F/B:ラチャスパリ ウェンディンニ シュト	遠く遠く 旅の果てに
S/F/B:ラチャスパリ ワティンナ ユチェンノ	いったい何が待っているのだろう
C/Me:にゃそ みゅろ	夢の桃源郷？
P/Ma:ジャソ クロ	黄金の都？
C/Me/P/Ma:にゅえんめに	みな求める
S/F/B:ソン ウェティケ	それでも
S/F/B:ラチャスパリ ウェンディンニ シュト	遠く遠く 旅の果てに
S/F/B:ラチャスパリ ヤティマ シェ ビンドロ	終わりの時を 見るのだとしても
C/Me:にゅらめしゅ うぇに な りゅて ゆえに	キミと辿った道は 永遠に輝きつづける
P/Ma:ウェ プライ デチュ フライ P:あで Ma:リンガディンガ	今オマエが隣にいることが
P:すぃど わい びお だぜい （Ma:スィ barara dadada オブラ ダゼイ	最高以外の何だってんだ？
（S:ららららら） F:ビンディ ヤンディパラ ビェン リファ	希望を胸に宿していれば
（S:らららら） F:ハン ダカラシャタ ナンピダ	いつかみんなで見つけ出せる
C/Me:みゅらに P/Ma:クラィ ナベ S/F/B:アンパラディ ウィナン ディ	巨大な時の流れの中で
C:りゃに にゅらに Me:めら にゅうぃら みりょまれ	果てしない 時間の交差の中で
C/Me:うぇの からまり てゅわり みゅへる	ぼくらは炎をつないでく
C/Me:りゃに にゅらに めら にゅうぃら みりょまれ	交じり合う 無限の命の流れ
C/Me:うぇど からまり てゅわり みゅへり	太古から続く 運命の螺旋

Three Wishes Lyrics (official romanization and English translation)

Romanization	English translation
C/P/S:Fani matiri	Here we stand in time—
Me/Ma/F:Finashu weraa weno na fe	endless past, present, and future span.
All:Wehdo mishadari teuwari myuheri	Our wishes are the flame that lights up history.
C:Nyueno yueni mifanahe	We've come far, you and I, on our journey.
Me:Nyoeni kyueno shumerahe	Sights and sounds, highs and lows, all that we've seen.
C:Myari nyuera henino wehni	Nothing at the start, in the void of night.
(P/Ma:Genimyusi enimo)
Me:Nyuri myare jurenya heli no ferri	But then out there, in the dark, a path came to light.
(S/F/B:Bhee endinni mahati)
C/Me:Nirine mare mitemo, myurine warenyuur	Did you think back then we'd be here? Guiding others in our shoes?
(S/F/B:Wandi) (P/Ma:Jassi kaazi yunuday)
C/Me:Yuwanyueri warinushe turelino	Tiny, tiny seeds, left on the trail, someday to bloom.
(S/F/B:Waday wheni oh)
C:Yueni Me:Yueni C/Me:Nyura ferrahi	Star at night, glowing bright, bringing us your light—
C/Me:Chururi myurafi nanehani, wehno wehnii	A message to us from far in the past, saying, "Shine on!"
(P/Ma/S/F/B:Kan biko zettin danso) (P/Ma/S/F/B:Byuroway sinderlay)
C:Shueni Me:Shueni C/Me:Shuraherani	Words you write, line by line, showing us your sights—
C/Me:Teruri myuurai nanehani, wehno wehnii	Passed down to us so we sing them today, we feel you still.
(P/Ma/S/F/B:Wan bikora feystin brazo) (P/Ma/S/F/B:Banin yaso)
P/Ma:Fani matiri, finashu weraa bino ma fe	Here we stand in time—endless past, present, and future span.
P/Ma:Wehdo mishadari teuwari myuheru	Our wishes are the flame that lights up history.
P/Ma:Fani matiri, finashu weraa weno na fe	In the infinite sea of people passing in the dark,
P/Ma:Wehdo mishadari teuwari myuheri	My brightly burning radiance drew you to me.
P:Hei! Wachappa forina Geh sappa rollidon	Hey! I'm seeing things so clear— The past is in the rear.
P:Sei sei paari dai Nia ratatata seybero	I'm a realist, I live in the now and seize it.
P:Don stapo billoway Gonawa tatatoh, shayk shayk	I swim just like a shark— Move forward, never brake or park.
P:Wizaichu mehn? Foo! Twassai dawi banilau	Think you can hang? Whew! Let's see what you can do!
Ma:Wezu nomee garanodai	I've been searching, all of my life,
Ma:Weviroki firidonesti	Finally I've found my north star.
(C/Me:Papara para pa)
Ma:Hazzu nowei garadodai	My heart's synched up, a satellite,
Ma:Iziraba moradudai	Orbiting wherever you are.
(S/F/B:Papara para pa)
P:Tikka veezon, ribba treeon Shaka ratata chura jizo whin	So your life sucks? Down on your luck? Gotta free yourself, get your mind unstuck.
(C/Me:Ranlan ni myuari nyoheri)
(Ma:Dalatata, dalatata) (S/F/B:Ranlan da radi battari battarida)
P:Stapino deejee reejee reezay Tunna wikka, rapinoka chare Kipon steen	Let fear push you on through, can do— Use some colors in your palette but blue, Paint it new!
(S/F/B:Rira) (C/Me:La la la wehnyaryueni)
(Ma:Dalatatatta) (S/F:Ah~)
Ma:Mukekka trineeda dofiyabe?	When is the moment you should chase your dreams?
P:Soh bafiin!	It's right now!
P/Ma:Haddomahna kyaso battan goorero	Overlapping cycles, binary stardom
P/Ma:chasso wikkonari turero	Nothing can knock us out of our groove
(C/Me/S/F/B:Paradonya wacchari no myuriteri) (C/Me/S/F/B:Widori fizau chu)
P/Ma:Haddomahna kyaso battan goorero	Overlapping cycles, binary stardom
P/Ma:chasso wikkonari fanderi	With you, nothing can stand in my way
(C/Me/S/F/B:Paradonya wacchari no myuriteri) (C/Me/S/F/B:Sheegow churu)
S/F/B:Fani matiri, finashu weraa bino ma fe	Here we stand in time—endless past, present, and future span.
S/F/B:Wehdo michanadari teuwandi myuchenni	Our wishes are the flame that lights up history.
S/F/B:Fani matiri, finashu weraa bino na fe	Surging down the line—glowing promise we hold in our hands.
S/F/B:Wehdo michandeni ruwanna myuchendi	Reflecting off themselves to build a guiding gleam.
F:Taradin taradin taradin cheredari	Here we go, with the flow, no one knows the future.
(P/Ma:Darii) (S:Dari)
F:Mikachen mikachen mikachen darapindo	On we run, so much fun, where no one has yet been.
(C/Me/S:Bindo)
F:Haradukke bitaari nyuyude pishando	Our excitement shows the way, leading us on and on,
(S:Nyuyude pishando)
F:Materinden pataanu pen daru dittai	Till we reach the lair where evil lies in wait!
(C/Me:Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!)
S:Yonateii yuni wattaina	The monsters that we face ahead?
(Ma:Nateii yuni wattaina) (F:Wattaina)
S:Eto yurani shami chaa chaa	Wake me up when we meet a true threat.
(C/Me:Shamichaa shamichaa) (F:Chabbino windii nau)
S:Shidarite kandariya	Chains can't hold me, we are too tough—
(Ma:Shidarite kandariya) (F:Shidarite kandariya)
S:Wata ahte chimuyoiyo	We'll defeat them with a single cut!
(F:Chimuyoo hoiyo)
F:Wendandi no keresuppari	Do you know just how we got so strong?
S:Kamari chikketemo sodanna	It's all thanks to the power of our bond.
F:Mahpyenni patti maccha pateni	A triple threat like us is 30 times as fierce.
S:Haina uchiyusa	So let's have three cheers!
S/F/B:Rachasu pari wendiin neeshuto	What in the world could be at the journey's end?
S/F/B:Rachasu pari watinna yuchuno	What will we find in the land beyond the sands?
C/Me:Nyaso myuro	A paradise?
P/Ma:Jasso kulu	A golden realm?
C/Me/P/Ma:Nyuen meni	We yearn to know.
S/F/B:Sohn wehtike	But even so,
S/F/B:Rachasu pari wendiin neeshuto	When we find out what lies at our journey's end,
S/F/B:Rachasu pari yatima shehbindoro	When I get there together with my dearest friends…
C/Me:Nyurashemu wehni naa ryute yehni	The path we walked will blaze forever.
P/Ma:Weh prai decchu frai P:Adeh Ma:Ringadeenga	Having you by my side
P:Seeh dwaai beeoh dazeh (Ma:Seeh baraara dadada ohbra dazeh)	makes today perfect.
(S:La laalaalaa laa laa laalaalaa) F:Beendi yandipara byenrifa	Long as we can keep our hope alive,
F:Haahn dakarashatta nanbida	We'll unite to find our dream someday.
C/Me:Myurani P/Ma:krahni nabei S/F/B:anbradi winnan di	In the vast, eternal sea, known as the flow of time.
C:Rani nyurani Me:Meranyu wira miryomare	Here we stand in time—endless past, present, and future span.
C/Me:Weeno karamari chuwari myuheru	Our wishes are the flame that lights up history.
C/Me:Rani nyurani meranyu wira miryomare	All life here is one—intermingled in the hourglass.
C/Me:Wehdo karamari chuwari myuheri	No start, no end, it lasts for all eternity.

--Explorer09 (talk) 19:10, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

The template is only used for initials and it does not look like the plan for colored text itself (original reason for this template) will be greenlit due to accessability. However, the overall structure of the table above is roughly reflecting a draft I will make when I hsve time.  Perfectionist  (talk) 13:13, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

This does have a prevalent accessibility issue as Marie and Marina's initials do not look visually distinct enough at ALL, and I got confused multiple times when reading this despite knowing who sings what lines. ArgentuTA164 (talk) 13:25, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

You should see the Testing Table on User:ArgentuTA164/Lyric Table Sandbox#''Three Wishes'' by the Now or Never Seven for the current plan for the lyric table. ArgentuTA164 (talk) 15:13, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi ArgentuTA164. Firstly I apologize for reverting your change without a notice. I just don't believe your lyrics format is better than the current version, plus the issues I've written in the discussion above. Second, I've noticed your sandbox draft, but unfortunately that didn't address the issues I have at the moment.

(1.) Maintainability. Ideally I wish each line (or words) of the lyrics be presented in code as simple as a template call:

{{Colored lyrics|
Kan biko zettin danso
|P|Ma|S|F|B
|c1=Pearl|c2=Marina|c3=Shiver|c4=Frye RotM|c5=Big Man|ingame=1}}

Maybe with icons (hypothetical example):

{{LyricWithIcon|
Kan biko zettin danso
|P|Ma|S|F|B
|c1=Pearl|c2=Marina|c3=Shiver|c4=Frye RotM|c5=Big Man
|icon1=SO Icon Pearl|icon2=SO Icon Marina
|icon3=RotM Icon Shiver|icon4=RotM Icon Frye|icon5=RotM Icon Big Man}}

But not putting everything inline:

[[File:SO Icon Pearl.png|30px]][[File:SO Icon Marina.png|30px]][[File:RotM Icon Shiver.png|30px]][[File:RotM Icon Frye.png|30px]][[File:RotM Icon Big Man.png|30px]] 
Kan biko zettin danso

Making it a template allows future tuning of the lyrics' style, such as adjusting icon sizes, or allow user preference (maybe combined with CSS) to disable icons and use initials throughout. Inlining the icons prevents this future tuning.

(2.) Accessability. IMHO, it's not really just about distinguishing the initials between Marie and Marina (BTW, I came up with "Me" and "Ma" rather than a one-letter initial "M" here). But I consider readers might copy the lyrics text and paste it on their word processor for printing, and for this reason icons are generally poor in conveying important information such a this. That's why I mentioned "alt text" in the discussion above that could solve part of this problem.

Maybe a better solution would be this: [[File:SO Icon Pearl.png|20px|link=|alt=]][[File:SO Icon Marina.png|20px|link=|alt=]][[File:RotM Icon Shiver.png|20px|link=|alt=]][[File:RotM Icon Frye.png|20px|link=|alt=]][[File:RotM Icon Big Man.png|20px|link=|alt=]]<span style="font-size:0; opacity:0; ">P/Ma/S/F/B</span> (P/Ma/S/F/B) I'm not an expert in the CSS thing so the above code may need tuning. Also, make that a template for whatever solution finally chosen, so that they can apply consistently to all song articles in this wiki. --Explorer09 (talk) 18:26, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

While a template is definitely a good idea on paper, it would require the creation of multiple different templates as the design of the table is not cohesive to one simple design.

Also, the superscript + singer legend template is more obtrusive to putting the lyrics on word processors than the icons, if this is a concern to begin with (which I don't think it ever was). That, and if they were copying the lyrics from the wiki, they were already looking at the wiki, so they would already know who sings what.

The current WIP system was discussed in length on the Inkipedia Discord server, and the lyric table format as a whole reviewed and discussed in the Ink Pump. The typical design of these was not viable for Suffer No Fools due to the large amount of singers, and this is the best way we were able to keep it consistent with the others lyric tables. ArgentuTA164 (talk) 19:16, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

1. My argument would be: Why multiple table designs? IMO, the new table layout doesn't make lyrics more readable but the new table wastes more horizontal space. As I read pages on a mobile phone this space waste is more significant to me. There is no good reason as far as I can see.

I try to make an example. Compare this:

Suffer No Fools (English Lyrics)
Off the Hook		Lyrics	Fire & Ice
Pearl	Marina		Shiver	Frye
Translated
		Small fish, stick to your bowl We're money makin', rakin', takin' control. Watch this– I'll show you kids the art of diss!

With this:

Suffer No Fools (English Lyrics)
Singer	Lyrics
	Translated
	Small fish, stick to your bowl We're money makin', rakin', takin' control. Watch this– I'll show you kids the art of diss!

(I save horizontal space by having just one column for singer icon.) Since this table is not meant to mimic any kind of in-game UI. We can design it to be more compact like this example.

2. Although I hate to point that out, when you reformat the lyrics to the table, you introduced transcription errors that I had fixed before. While I won't blame other editors for their Japanese literacy, you should be careful anyway and compare your transcriptions with others (as I made this mistake before, you can call me a hypocrite for saying this).

Wrong: 格の潼いを

Correct: 格の違いを

Wrong: お〜ら マンタローさん、楽しそうで よろすじおすなぁ？

Correct: あ〜ら マンタローはん、楽しそうで よろしおすなぁ？ (Shiver has a Kyoto accent in the Japanese version, the はん rather than さん is not an error.)

--Explorer09 (talk) 19:58, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

If I reintroduced transcription errors, your fixes would have been made after I had copied them down. Also, wouldn't it be easier to fix the transcription yourself instead of telling me about it? (Not upset, just wondering why you're telling me.) ArgentuTA164 (talk) 20:04, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

1. Because there are a lot. And as the format changed (to a wikitable) it's hard to compare line by line.

2. Transcription errors means the (unofficial) English translations afterwards are unreliable. Unless I am native to the language you are translating from (sorry but I am a Chinese not a Japanese), I cannot very your translations are accurate. That's the problem.

--Explorer09 (talk) 20:30, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Well that makes a little more sense at least. I'll go ahead and do a double-check on Big Betrayal later tonight. ArgentuTA164 (talk) 20:39, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

It is fully possible to make the lyrics be handled by a new template as you're proposing. I would not consider the template implementation or lack thereof to be a deciding factor towards implementing one lyric format or the other; templates can always be created or removed down the line according to our needs.

ArgentuTA164 proposed the new table formatting in April and shared their experiments in our Discord server which was met with a lot of support. The current system has messy-looking superscript and linebreaks, it overall doesn't allow for easy side-by-side comparisons of each set of lyrics.

A major concern with the current means of marking which idol sings which lyric is that the added coloring per idol name abbreviation is not very accessible; screen readers may read the abbreviations (though ultimately, abbreviations seem more confusing that helpful in this case), but a general issue persists as certain signature colors have poor visual contrast (ie. Frye), overall looking glaring and difficult to read. Adding alt text to the idol icons to the table format would work better for detailing the idol names. Implementing a single-column singer listing sounds good.

At this time Three Wishes is the only lyric page to now not be updated (example of an updated song page). The new table-based lyric system had been thoroughly discussed in the Discord server with general agreement that it is an improvement; I see now the change could have benefited from some on-wiki discussion, but overall discussion should have been held before you reverted it. The new table should be reinstated once the alternate languages have also been converted to the new format. Yoshifan52 (talk) 20:41, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

The main motive for me to revert the page is that new edits introduce "regressions". I mean, transcription errors that weren't there before. And apart from the table format, I personally value content accuracy first. And as I mentioned, transcription errors means further Japanese-to-English translations unreliable. I just can't get why you guys decided to roll out the format right now before you spend time correcting errors first. Because if I have had the privilege, I would revert other pages too, citing the content quality issues. --Explorer09 (talk) 22:16, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

My understanding is Argentu has very diligently copied everything as accurately as possible, consulting with experienced translators whenever possible, but if you spot any remaining transcription mistakes, please correct them directly. It is possible to observe the previous page versions containing the non-table formatting and copy the lyric text from there to the current table formatting versions. Please do not revert to the old formatting as a means of correcting non-formatting-related mistakes; simply update the lyric content. There's no need for a formatting revert if the primary content you mean to correct is not the formatting. I'll leave a message asking fluent editors to check for accuracy in the chat. Yoshifan52 (talk) 23:46, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

I feel I was disrespected when an administrator told me to correct a mistake that was not my own. Besides, I have done proofreading before (such as this edit) and I don't have the motivation to do it again at the moment.

If an edit diff like this can't tell you easily what lyric lines have changed (thus introducing regressions), chances are that you did the wiki syntax more complex than necessary, or you are doing too much in a single edit (I am not a fan of either case).

The older, template syntax approach had a good wikipedia:Separation of content and presentation, but with the new lyrics table, that principle was ruined. And it became harder for me to review the lyrics in the new table format.

It's not that I can't design new templates to help adapting the lyrics to the new table. But it looks like you guys just want to push the new format too quickly without caring for the long term maintainability, and I lost my interest in contributing to this wiki anymore. --Explorer09 (talk) 02:27, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

I had no intention of disrespecting you; I fail to see how my message may be read as rude. You're more in tune with the transcription mistakes you brought up than I am, so I'm entrusting you with the task as I am not knowledgeable on the topic. I've asked others to pitch in if possible. As an administrator I am not a "main editor" of the wiki or such, I primarily help facilitate others to make their own edits. If one spots a mistake, they should try to fix it; if for any reason they cannot fix it themselves, we ask them to demonstrate what needs fixing and where so others may complete the edit.

If I'm able to help I will help, and if you are requesting specifically I fix it, I'm afraid I only have very entry level knowledge of Japanese and thus don't feel qualified enough to handle this text, as I am only confident in reading kana; I'm unfamiliar with 99% of kanji present. This is in line with our transcription guidelines.

I'm not sure what to say here; unfortunately I can't see your reply as constructive. Our community is in general agreement the new format works better at this time. The table format had been repeatedly discussed and reworked on one of our editing discussion spaces for over four entire months. Yoshifan52 (talk) 04:20, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

I mean no offense, but your mistake as an administrator is not leaving a written record about the decision to change the table format, and not having a space for other editors to discuss about the decision. Saying the discussion happened on a Discord server is not enough, as there are only a few of the contributers can attend a voice chat there, and there is a need of minutes whenever a big decision is made.

The other things is, when rolling in a big change like a lyrics table, you or Argentu should make sure the content is up to date, like, merging two development branches in a version control system. The wiki system isn't capable of detecting content discrepancy (known as "merge conflict" in a VCS), and what Argentu has done is equivalent to abandoning a branch that is kept up to date my many contributors in favor of their branch. That voids the contributing efforts of other editors and is partly why I was upset. (You didn't know it took me many real world hours to proofread the lyrics to make them match the official video, did you?)

As I said, my interest in contributing to this wiki was over. --Explorer09 (talk) 20:11, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

We as staff do not claim to be infallible or better than other users—we make mistakes sometimes as well, and we are more than willing to respectfully and calmly discuss them as we have done on this very talk page.

Respectfully, you are as of now the only voice of dissent to this change overall, but despite that I would say other editors in this discussion have been more than willing to engage with your critiques in good faith and implement your feedback where agreed as necessary. The fact that you have felt disrespected and seemingly irreparably wounded by simply having been asked to try and meet us halfway does not reflect well on your mindset as an editor who should be willing to collaborate and most importantly forgive some of our most dedicated editors their occasional missteps, as any of us would you in turn. If you will not or cannot bring this behavior to our project, then your loss of interest is our cause for relief. Driftin Soul [Talk!] 00:03, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

[1] I don't know who is uncollaborating. --Explorer09 (talk) 17:42, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I thought you said you weren't interested in contributing to the wiki anymore? /genq

Beyond that, did you check with anyone about the new format or template? I had specifically intended to keep the squid language separate due to a suggestion from a patroller or admin to limit Now or Never Seven songs to two columns max.

And the inline lyric icon format is...not appealing. The colored boxes do not look good when used in succession and I find them unnecessary at best and actively intrusive at worst.

You also made no effort to communicate your plans and show them from what I can tell, and now the tables actively conflict with the original plan. ArgentuTA164 (talk) 17:33, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

1. I noted the intention to create a new template in a draft talk page. (Administrators should have been aware of this.)

2. The template design isn't final. Actually I left it open for any presentaion of the singers because the real purpose of the template is to separate content from presentation. That way if you want to change icon size or color or whatever then it's easy to change it on the template rather than on the articles.

3. I didn't find any suggestion of yours about "limiting Now or Never Seven songs to two columns max", but I'm welcome to hear it. However, there is one thing I need you to know: The "squid language" of the lyrics are not exactly the same in every language version of the video (so I've hit differences like this when trying to proofread every line). I mean, you might being that into consideration when you bring up a good table for "squid language" lyrics comparisons (and I would suspect that table would be four columns).

Kana	Romanization (unofficial) from kana	NoA official romanization	NoE official romanization
(Callie/Marie:) りゃに にゅらに めら にゅうぃら みりょまれ	(Callie/Marie:) Ryani nyurani mera nyuwira miryomare	(Callie/Marie:) Rani nyurani meranyu wira miryomare	(Callie/Marie:) [sic] Meranyu Wiramiryo mare

Explorer09 (talk) 19:25, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Your draft was moved to that talk page by another administrator with the intent that you could work on it further if needed and then present it in a more public-facing manner such as a proposal or in Ink Pump (as you were told on your own talk page); most users will not think or seek to look at the talk page of a user subpage unless specifically directed, so just having it there is not really a good way to prompt discussion. Driftin Soul [Talk!] 19:38, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Where is a better place for I to bring up the discussion of this issue about the lyrics table (that I can't see what others are planning and it's seem that we are duplicating efforts making results that cannot be merged)? I'm not sure what to mention if I bring this to Ink Pump for further discussion. --Explorer09 (talk) 20:03, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

The Ink Pump would be the best place to discuss things if you do not have a concrete plan to suggest. If you do have a concrete plan to suggest (with all the moving parts set up, such as related templates) please set up a proposal. Yoshifan52 (talk) 03:22, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Files a discussion here: Inkipedia talk:Ink Pump#Lyrics table format and templates --Explorer09 (talk) 09:36, 20 September 2024 (UTC)