User talk:Explorer09

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Latest comment: 8 January by Explorer09 in topic Album listing module

Three Wishes page

Hello, I notice that you have taken issue with some aspects of our documentation on Three Wishes. Although your willingness to discuss the topic on a talk page is appreciated, in future it would be strongly preferred if you did so before reverting another editor's considerable hard work; Argentu's lyric table project has had considerable effort put into it and has been looked over and approved by multiple other editors including some members of staff, and the intent was to bring it to mainspace as soon as reasonably possible. If you have grievances with or ideas to improve another editor's contributions, it would be much appreciated by all involved to bring that feedback first rather than doing a large revert off the bat. Please keep this in mind for the future. Thank you for your time! Driftin Soul [Talk!] 10:16, 4 September 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've noticed the effort of Argentu on the lyrics. However, what I've noticed are regressions on the new edit, and it degrades the overall quality of the page. Rather than having a good idea to fix it, I think it might be better to just revert it. Explorer09 (talk) 10:24, 4 September 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
My apologies but your subjective opinion is not validating an undo without talking beforehand. While some more edits are planned to improve, the tables were created to have a clearer formating than the centered text with initials, lacking alignments. The whole reason many users requested a table format is easier sorting, which the centered form did not provide. Concerning your comment on the Three Wishes talk page I wrote something as well but to put it shortly: nothing more than what the video provided got added, which makes your named issues not understandable.  Perfectionist  (talk) 10:36, 4 September 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Proposal draft move

I've moved your proposal draft from ArgentuTA164's draft's talk page to a sandbox talk page of your own (sandbox information), seeing as the content is closer to a proposal draft page than a typical talk page message. If you would like to initiate a formal proposal, please use the proposals page. If you would like to initiate site-wide discussion of the topic, please use the Ink Pump rather than the talk page of Argentu's draft. Yoshifan52 (talk) 04:32, 5 September 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Three Wishes again

I don't really get why you reverted my edit. Personal opinion about what looks good or bad is subjective (I personally think Pearl's lines especially look weird without the line breaks due to the casing), which is why it's best to follow the official source. If we're sticking so close to the official formatting as to include whole notes about punctuation usage, I don't get why the line should be drawn here. (Also, I wasn't just removing parentheses, there were a couple lines where I added them.) Hewer (talk · contributions) 10:34, 20 October 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I did compare Nintendo of America, Nintendo Europe and Japan versions of the videos. And found that they didn't have consistent rules about line breaking. I really would like to have lines breaks there for accuracy and to make them look more like a poem. But the inconsistencies between the sources would likely make your efforts futile. I tried that already.
See this example:
  • Japan (from Grand Festival website): へい! / わっちゃっぱ ふぉりな / げあ さっぱ ろりだん
  • Japan (from the music video): へい! わっちゃっぱ ふぉりな / げあ さっぱ ろりだん
  • Nintendo of America music video: Hei! / Wachappa forina / Geh sappa rollidon
  • Europe versions of music videos (nl, fr, de, it, es): Hei! Wachappa forina / Geh sappa rollidon
(Note: I use slashes "/" for visible breaks in the example above. In English when you quote a poem and have to format it in one line, slashes are used for what were intentional line breaks in poems.)
This example might be the worst offender (the Europe versions have breaks messed up):
  • Japan: すたぴの でぃじ りじ りぜ / とぅな うぃっか らぴのか ちゃれ / きぽん すてぃん
  • America: Stapino deejee reejee reezay / Tunna wikka, rapinoka chare / Kipon steen
  • Europe: Stapino deejee reejee / reezay Tunna wikka, / rapinoka chare / Kipon steen
The only conclusion I could make is to not mark any visible line breaks at all. (Sigh.)
The other thing about parentheses: In printed lyrics sheet, whenever there are two lyrics sung simultaneously, you should always mark the second singer's line in parentheses so that readers won't get confused (thinking they were sequential). In karaoke they are not always parenthesized but that's a practice you should avoid. That's why Marina' line "Seeh baraara dadada ohbra dazeh" can never have parentheses removed.
That's about it. Explorer09 (talk) 02:07, 21 October 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Inconsistencies between languages shouldn't be a problem because we can reflect them by having each language match its official video. And as for English where there's two official videos, I'd still rather prioritise the American one (as this wiki generally does) than not use any line breaks at all, maybe even note the differences in the European one like we do for the punctuation. It'd be better than just ignoring the line breaks entirely. Hewer (talk · contributions) 07:19, 21 October 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You should look at the last table "Three Wishes lyrics romanization comparison" and see the complications. I have to present different versions of the same lyric line with multi-line formatting already. Adding <br> within lines would break the visuals more than it helps. If you are aiming for visible slashes "/", then fine, you can go with it. (Yet I mentioned your efforts of trying to do that are likely futile.) But I'm against having more <br>'s as the lyric tables of Three Wishes in particular has been complex enough. Explorer09 (talk) 07:46, 21 October 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I mean, I thought it looked fine when I implemented it (and a moment ago you said you "really would like to have lines breaks there for accuracy and to make them look more like a poem"). The romanization comparison bit uses bullet points to show different versions, so I don't really see how it conflicts, but we could always just make an exception for that section if we needed to. It'd be better than entirely ignoring this information. Hewer (talk · contributions) 12:07, 21 October 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
1. Issue with mobile view. Mobile browsers have a narrow screen to display a line, and it would cause word wrap in unexpected places.
2. When you are displaying lyrics and their transliteration side by side (in a table), you ought to have each line aligned. A table row can work with that alignment most of the time, but <br> within table cells would then break that alignment, causing things contrary to what you wish.
Trying to demonstrate the issue with this table (look at the right column, and I can tolerate why Nintendo of Europe messed up with the breaks):
"width: 300px;" "width: 200px;"
Stapino deejee reejee reezay /
Tunna wikka, rapinoka chare /
Kipon steen
Stapino deejee reejee reezay / Tunna wikka, rapinoka chare / Kipon steen
Stapino deejee reejee reezay /
Tunna wikka, rapinoka chare /
Kipon steen
Stapino deejee reejee reezay /
Tunna wikka, rapinoka chare /
Kipon steen
Ideal display (no <br>, but table rows indicating line breaks)
Stapino deejee reejee reezay Stapino deejee reejee reezay
Tunna wikka, rapinoka chare Tunna wikka, rapinoka chare
Kipon steen Kipon steen
Explorer09 (talk) 05:14, 22 October 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I still don't really see the issue? It looks perfectly fine to me. And I'd argue the line breaks actually help with alignment, since both sets of lyrics generally have the same line breaks, meaning they end up aligning anyway. Hewer (talk · contributions) 09:31, 22 October 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Which browser are you using anyway? I'm not sure where to upload the screenshot of my browser view, but you should have seen the forced wrap with the "width: 200px" column on the right. Or maybe I should set "width: 160px" to make the forced wrapping more obvious. Explorer09 (talk) 14:54, 22 October 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm using Chrome on mobile, I've tried changing the wiki skin and turning desktop mode off and on but it still always looks fine to me. Hewer (talk · contributions) 08:51, 23 October 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I uploaded a screenshot temporarily in Imgur. Screenshot. It might not last for long. Using Brave browser on an Android system. Note the red arrows I draw on the right (excuse me for looking ugly because I did this on my phone). Those are the line breaks I was talking about. Explorer09 (talk) 09:55, 23 October 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
While I see your point, I'd personally still take that over not including the official line breaks at all. There already is some line wrapping on the current page (at least on my screen), it's unavoidable. Hewer (talk · contributions) 15:57, 23 October 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The point is, you cannot assume the line wrapping in the user's browser, so <br> tags would have poor accessibility. That's why I advised using visible slashes "&nbsp;/ ", if you really want to mark the breaks. Explorer09 (talk) 23:50, 23 October 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ok, here's a new point (since I somehow never thought to check this until now): other song pages do use <br> for line breaks in lyric tables. For example, Calamari Inkantation, City of Color, Fly Octo Fly, Muck Warfare, Ink Me Up, Hide and Sleek, etc., etc. So why should Three Wishes be the sole exception? If you don't think lyric tables should have those line breaks, it would be better to discuss changing all of them rather than creating an inconsistency by removing them from one page. Hewer (talk · contributions) 19:40, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You came just in time when I wrote a new technical section On lyrics with line breaks in the template documentation. I suggest you to read the section first. The issue is a technical one - not just the problem of consistencies. Explorer09 (talk) 21:47, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
So we should have line breaks? Hewer (talk · contributions) 22:44, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
There can't be one rule about whether all songs should have line breaks. I think that question should be determined per song, and so not a global rule.
Perhaps such issue is better discussed at Inkipedia talk:Ink Pump. Because sometimes I did format the lyrics in a way that other editors may disagree. And maybe a consensus can be formed in a way better than I formatting the lyrics. Explorer09 (talk) 23:03, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Suffer No Fools

May I ask why you separated the choruses in Suffer No Fools from the rest of the lyrics? It makes it a pain to read the lyrics. ArgentuTA164 (talk) 18:59, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

1. The chorus parts are romanized lyrics and have no translation.
2. Since the chorus parts would be presented twice per language version if they were intermixed with the dialogues, separating them into different tables reduces duplication (thus the tables would be easier to maintain).
3. It allows the dialogues parts and chorus parts to have different presentations - for example, you are unlikely to use {{Inline singer lyrics}} for dialogue parts. Explorer09 (talk) 19:27, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Splitting off the chorus with a drastically different presentation doesn't immediately aid readability; I've taken a glance at the new change and I'm left confused. We should stick to one consistent style for all lyric tables. A dedicated table explaining all the transliteration changes could be useful, but it should be a separate table duplicating the information rather than having that information split off from the regular ones. Yoshifan52 (talk) 19:40, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I have already thought of this issue a lot, and it just seems to me that there cannot be one consistent style that can apply to all songs on this wiki. The song articles that I have been editing, including Big Betrayal, Suffer No Fools and Three Wishes, all have different requirements. Thus there could not be a solution that fits all.
  • Big Betrayal - the Live version has a lot of "dialogues" officially available in many different languages. If we are to repeat the verses & chorus parts of them, there would be a lot of duplication of lyrics (unless you make them into "Template: Lyrics/Big Betrayal", but I doubt other editors would like that).
  • Suffer No Fools - this also comes with dialogue parts separate from chorus parts, so the similar issue arises. The other requirement is that the "dialogues" need to present singer names in left and right, as the singers are "rap battling".
  • Three Wishes - first song to have an official line-by-line "translation" (squid to any human language); also 7 singers. This is one that I already have found a final solution to the lyric tables, but those are a drastically different presentation from other songs, as you can see.
Explorer09 (talk) 20:09, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Big Betrayal's live version would only need the translated dialogue, there's no point in transcribing the lyrics since we don't HAVE the Bancalive Thunder lyrics, and it's not the point of the section anyways.
Suffer No Fools has no dialogue as the rap sections are by all means lyrics, and the chorus parts were put into a merged column anyways before the edit.
Three Wishes (and any other Now or Never Seven song, for that matter) is exempt from this as the requirement of easily presenting 7 singers is just not possible with the normal format. ArgentuTA164 (talk) 20:27, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
In some perspectives the "dialogue" parts of Big Betrayal and Suffer No Fools are both lyrics. I say "dialogue" only to focus on those sections being translated rather than transliterated. For both "dialogue" parts, we need to keep the name tags of the characters rather than just singer icons or colors. That's the "different presentation" I was talking about. Explorer09 (talk) 20:40, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I truly do not see the point in giving a different presentation to the dialogue in Big Betrayal or the rapping in Suffer No Fools.
And putting the dialogue in Big Betrayal and the lyrics of Suffer No Fools under the same umbrella is... a strange idea to say the least.
I don't mind the extra comparison table for Suffer No Fools, but we shouldn't separate the chorus from the rest of the song. And I would prefer having the Bancalive Thunder dialogue for Big Betrayal separate as it is right now, but using different formats for the dialogue and lyrics is pointless. ArgentuTA164 (talk) 21:28, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The issue: Before I separate the chorus part of the lyrics from the "dialogue" lyrics in Suffer No Fools, I see the chorus parts of the lyrics in all languages except Japanese presented with colspan="2" in the wiki table.
This implied the layout is not ideal, as the "X-to-English translation" table column became unused. Do you have any solution to this? Explorer09 (talk) 23:35, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
(Continued.) My vision is that all dialogue-like parts of the lyrics would be presented in a form somewhat like the {{Mission quote}} template. The important part is that the "name tags" are present in addition to character icons. Also, the unofficial to-English translations would appear below the official dialogue of whatever language it was. The {{Mission quote}} form is (I think) the best for preserving intentional line breaks in lyrics when viewed in mobile browsers.
And that would alter the current lyric table.
I was really trying to find the lyrics presentation that works best. This is what I can make so far (as an example)
イイダ(意訳)
アナタの唄も とってもステキ
そんなふうに歌ってみたいです♪
ヒメ(意訳)
どーだ 参ったか!
(Marina:) スパタ ラディクダ
(Marina:) ヴァダ
Explorer09 (talk) 23:41, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
My understanding is the main issue at hand is it seems you keep making drastic changes without fully discussing them with the other people involved with maintaining the lyric tables. Heads-ups, seeking others' feedback and trying to stick to consensus rather than making drastic changes then pushing back against other editors' disagreement is what we'd like to achieve. You clearly have a lot of ideas with a lot of consideration and technical skill put into them; we would like to work with you as you develop the ideas in a collaborative sense rather than see them suddenly appear without warning.
In my opinion, we shouldn't swap to a Mission Quotes-like template for dialogue within songs, as the song lyrics aren't presented as such in the official videos. That format is for in-game dialogue rather than music video lyrics that may contain dialogue. Yoshifan52 (talk) 08:01, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Following up on what Yoshifan said, I see no reason to complicate the design further beyond its current appearance. “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”, you know? I just want to re-add the choruses to the rest of the song.
Also, for Three Wishes, I did have an idea for how to do the Japanese version of the song. It’s on my lyric table sandbox, near the top.
I found it ideal to use the inline singer template on the human language lyrics, since the lyrics do correspond to specific squid syllables regardless of syllable count. ArgentuTA164 (talk) 14:10, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Replying to Argentu first.
1. I have changed my mind a little bit on the chorus part of Suffer No Fools
. Now I don't object to you adding them back to the table. I recalled myself why I removed them in the first place - it was when I migrated the lyrics to using {{Inline singer lyrics}} and it was easier to work them on the separate table. Now if you can make a copy of them into the lyric-with-dialogue tables and make them look neat, go ahead and do it.
2. For Three Wishes, please don't. The squid to Japanese syllable mapping would be speculation and unofficial. For this wiki we should avoid speculations unless there are official sources supporting what you claimed. Explorer09 (talk) 14:39, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
P.S. I know what you are trying to do:
"(Callie:) 星の(Marie:)  (Callie/Marie:) キラキラリ"
"(Callie:) 言葉 (Marie:) 歴史 (Callie/Marie:) キラキラリ"
"(Frye:) とめどなく湧き出る (Frye/Shiver/Callie/Marie:) アイディア"
"(Pearl/Marina:) 今オマエが隣にいることが" (I don't know how to split this one)
Right? As I said these singer indicators are unofficial. Explorer09 (talk) 14:55, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
There is indeed an official source. At the end of the lyric video, it clearly shows some syllables being mapped to actual lyrics.
The rest of the song in Japanese and English is also perfectly mapped to the syllables and it was clearly intentional. The English tweet even says they added lyrics for us to sing along. ArgentuTA164 (talk) 15:41, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I mentioned this in the talk page before. The number of syllables don't match except for English "translated" lyrics. If they match I would have done it already.
The line "(Callie/Marie:) 巨大な(Pearl/Marina:) 時の(Shiver/Frye/Big Man:) 流れの中で" is surely an exception, but only that exception. Explorer09 (talk) 15:50, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Nope. Plenty of them match, like the main chorus and most of Callie’s lines. ArgentuTA164 (talk) 15:51, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Try romanizing every line of the Japanese lyrics and see them yourself. Don't take my word as correct. Explorer09 (talk) 15:53, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I’ve been doing that for a while. Japanese singing often plays with how syllables are pronounced, so it can indeed work. ArgentuTA164 (talk) 16:01, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It's funny for someone who wants to do work that others have told them the efforts would be futile. Explorer09 (talk) 16:27, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think we should put this on the Ink Pump to get more opinions on the subject instead of just us. ArgentuTA164 (talk) 18:20, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Can I also now ask why you changed the lyric tables' formatting on Ebb & Flow to look like the Now or Never Seven's lyric tables? ArgentuTA164 (talk) 18:10, 20 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Your version of the lyric table had a flaw that the section breaks in the lyrics are hardly visible. Besides, if you need to mark inline singer icons in every line of the lyrics, the (bigger) singer icons in the left table column would then convey no information. Not sure if this answer is convincing to you, but I just wanted to keep the table simple while conveying the same amount of information. Explorer09 (talk) 18:23, 20 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The problem is that you're not discussing these edits with me beforehand, and if you had asked, I would've told you I find it better to be consistent with the normal lyric tables. Please talk to me about these edits to my largest project on the wiki before you make them. ArgentuTA164 (talk) 18:37, 20 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I don't like the attitude of needing to talk to someone before making edits. The exception might be edits that would be controversial. Unless there is a set policy on the how the lyric sections should be presented, I would make edits to make the tables in the way "I think" look the best.
No offense, but since the old revisions are still there, how about mentioning this topic in the Ink Pump, compare this revision and this newer one, and let other people decide which one looks better? Explorer09 (talk) 18:59, 20 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It has been precedent on the wiki, if I remember correctly, to discuss edits beforehand if they’ve been contentious before, and Yoshifan52 has already mentioned this to you before. ArgentuTA164 (talk) 19:51, 20 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ink Pump failed

So, the Ink Pump conversation/vote failed, so I wanted to talk to you. The point with the original design of the lyric tables was to convey:

  • Who was singing in the line
  • Who wasn't singing in the line
  • The lyrics
  • Where the lines are split between characters, if necessary (which you have been a massive help with)

This is partially why I've been so combative about a lot of the suggested changes. Like I said, I'm super grateful for the help in terms of the icons, but I would like to keep the lyric tables as is.

A new reason for keeping them the same is the new information we have for Big Betrayal. Now that we have the full song, and all the dialogue, AND the nonsense version of the dialogue, a second table(s) need to be made for the booklet version, and it has been insisted that I talk to you about it.

This is my current idea. Any suggestions?

Big Betrayal
Deep Cut Japanese English
Shiver Frye Big Man Japanese
Dialogue
Kana English
Translation
Romanization
のう、マンタロー この写真は なんじゃ?
ハイカラな女子に囲まれて ヘラヘラしておる
このお調子者は だれなんじゃろな?
ノ〜ゥ マンティロー ユテラ アジャンティ ランタ?
バティラ ヤンディバ サマジュリ ナンド
アルデリッ チュヘラ ダラディン ジュパア?
Yo, Big Man, what's this photo?
Who's this happy guy laughing and surrounded by those Inkopolis girls?
Nōu Mantirō yutera ajanti ranta?
Batira yandiba samajuri nando
Aruderit chuhera daradin jupaa?
ダンダンダン Dandandan!

ArgentuTA164 (talk) 23:20, 11 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  1. I wouldn't say the vote in Ink Pump failed. It's just that there are not enough attention. So I would argue the issue can be raised again when it's needed.
  2. For the Big Betrayal example. Please no. There are just too many table columns to make the table readable in mobile. I'm sorry for this suggestion, but my vision is that if a lyric table has more than three columns (excluding the singer icons), then the readability would suffer.
Yes. I am now aware that the Ordertune booklet has the "squid language"/gibberish versions of the dialogues. But in this case, I suggest you do the way like Three Wishes: three columns, "Kana", "Official Japanese Translation (意訳)", and "English from Japanese". Put the squid language romanization in English part of the lyric table as well as the final "romanization comparison" table.
Big Betrayal lyrics (kana and official Japanese translation)
Kana Official Japanese translation (意訳) English (unofficial from Japanese)
Big Betrayal lyrics (official English)
Romanization (from Ordertune) Official English translation
Big Betrayal lyrics romanization comparison
Kana lyrics (with Hepburn romanization) Official romanization (from music video)
Explorer09 (talk) 22:43, 13 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Haven't checked your tables out yet, but I wanted to let you know I did start working on something in my sandbox if you'd like to check it out. But it's basically
Table 1: Music video
Table 2: Japanese and kana only
Table 3: English translation and romaji ArgentuTA164 (talk) 23:35, 13 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
What is the "Table 1: Music video" you are talking about? I can get what Table 2 you are working on and it mostly fits my vision as mentioned above. The Table 3 is also easy to get even though I didn't see your example.
Note. Since I don't have the physical copy of Ordertune I cannot verify any of your transcription. But I can help the romanization from kana part anyway. Explorer09 (talk) 23:53, 13 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Table 1 is the already existing table, the one I relabeled "Big Betrayal (Music Video)" on the page. As far as I can tell, it has no discrepancies between the kana lyrics or dialogue, but the unique English romanization I felt made it necessary to keep as is. ArgentuTA164 (talk) 23:56, 13 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Also, quick update on romanizing the lyrics for these songs, there's a few weird syllables that have stumped me. ノゥ is not normal phonetic kana, and I finally figured out a method: the syllable sounds super close to Marina's "WOW" in Ebb & Flow and We're So Back, so I figured it could be replicated for ノゥ as "now", since "nou" would correspond to different kana. ArgentuTA164 (talk) 00:00, 14 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
ノゥ should pronounce like (ノー). Japanese might use small kana to denote prolonged sound except there is no standard orthography for such things. The word "now" might pronounce more like ナウ (nau) and it's different thing. Explorer09 (talk) 00:24, 14 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Normally I would agree... but they extend it with the normal method IN this structure.
(Frye:) ノ〜ゥ マンティロー
(Which I'm romanizing as (Frye:) Nōw Mantirō)
I think anybody reading it is probably listening to the song at the same time, and as you said, nau is what would be read as "now". ArgentuTA164 (talk) 00:48, 14 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I would romanize ノ〜ゥ as No~u. The wavy dash is different from chōon and thus you should not use macron for this. Explorer09 (talk) 00:59, 14 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It's often used the same way. Splatoon tends to use them for certain idols. And again, nou is のう/ノウ, which IS said differently from のぅ/ノゥ, which is closer to Marina's "WOW". ArgentuTA164 (talk) 01:29, 14 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
There is no solution, unfortunately. Because the small ゥ is used informally here (no official orthography was established for this use). I would personally refrain from inventing new ways for romanizing things. In case you didn't know, the Japanese Wikipedia article 捨て仮名 had a list of possible small kana usage. But many informal uses exist. Explorer09 (talk) 02:06, 14 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I did ask someone more familiar with Japanese what to do with ノゥ and their response was, and I am copy/pasting this:
"Ah... In that case, my vote would be for noᵘ, nou, , and now, in that order"
The main thing with romanizing these lyrics is that if something is made distinct visually, it's likely for a reason. (This is also why I had apostrophes in some places, to distinguish バイヤ ba'iya from ダィヤ daiya in Daybreaker Anthem. They're visually and aurally distinct.) ArgentuTA164 (talk) 00:20, 15 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Latin alphabets do not use superscript "u" like that. The "small size" versions of the alphabet are meant for IPA and are not part of any kana romanization scheme.
  • It isn't just you that face this "small kana romanization" problem. I have, too. (Pearl/Marina:) クラィ ナベ (Romanized: (Pearl/Marina:) kurai nabe) (Three Wishes) They did use small kana for some kind of "modified vowels" that are meant to pronounce "connected" to the previous syllable instead of starting a syllable on its own. Unfortunately the Hepburn scheme is already limited in distinguishing these things (otherwise I would have marked them too). クライ (kura'i with syllable separation, but Hepburn would not mark that apostrophe except for ん case); クラィ (kurai with the rai being one syllable)
  • Note that I'm not talking about cases like スア (sua) vs. スァ (swa) where romanization distinction can be made.
Explorer09 (talk) 07:00, 15 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You have inspired me to start a proposal on the Ink Pump for revising the romanization policy, because it's becoming increasingly clear that sticking to normal Hepburn is not functional. I felt it necessary to let you know first (though I can't remember why), so... do you have any comments? ArgentuTA164 (talk) 16:08, 15 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm not sure what you're going to propose. I would like to see your topic and options first. (The Hepburn limitations were not a big deal for me. Because no romanizations were perfect. The Hepburn was just relatively better than other Japanese romanizations as it can transliterate "foreign" sounds in Japanese more accurately than others. That's it.) Explorer09 (talk) 17:43, 15 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"After looking through the policies, I noticed that there's no actual policy for romanizing the lyrics, only names. I think Hepburn was just used by default.
With the release of Ordertune, it's become increasingly apparent that sticking to traditional Hepburn isn't effective. The songs make visual and aural distinctions with irregular kana usage that traditional Hepburn is ill-equipped for. Daybreaker Anthem and Big Betrayal are notable examples.
Near the beginning of Daybreaker Anthem, Frye sings ワンダィホ wandaiho, as three syllables (wan/dai/ho). Later, she sings バイヤ baiya, also as three syllables (ba/i/ya). The small kana present in the first one appears to make a visual distinction to tell the reader it's part of the same syllable (with the big one later to represent it's a new syllable), but Hepburn has no way to make this distinction.
In Big Betrayal, Frye sings a line with the irregular kana ノゥ (no followed by a small u, other songs have similar kana with other consonants). Normally this could be read as nou or , but the songs where this appears specifically make a point to distinguish it from these both visually and aurally. (Frye extends a ro normally when yelling Big Man's name in Big Betrayal, and Shiver has a nou in her dialogue as well.) Again, Hepburn does not have a way to distinguish ノゥ/のう from ノウ/のう/nou or ノー/のー/.
So, I want to make a proposal for a policy/policy reform for Inkipedia to use its own altered Hepburn romanization (thus forward titled Inkipedian Hepburn for simplicity) for lyrics.
  • If an A syllable is followed by a small I (e.g. ダィ), it is always to be written as ai (e.g. dai). If elsewhere in the song, a large I is used instead (e.g. ダイ), it is to be written with an apostrophe (e.g. da'i).
    • No consonants have an exception to this rule, but if the Ai structure does not appear, it can be ignored.
  • If an O syllable is followed by a small U (e.g. ノゥ), it is to be written as ow (using Marina's "WOW" in songs as a basis).
    • T (とぅ/トゥ) and D (どぅ/ドゥ) ignore this rule, as that is the only way to write tu and du.
  • If a sokuon (っ/ッ) appears at the end of a word and is followed by a vowel, Y, or W, an apostrophe is appended to the end. (e.g. キッ ユナ / ki' yuna)
    • If a sokuon is followed by a consonant that is not Y or W, add the consonant to the end of the word.
      (e.g. キッ トゥナ/kit tuna, キッ シュナ/kish shuna)
I'd like opinions, suggestions, rewordings, etc. before this gets moved to a policy/policy reform proposal." ArgentuTA164 (talk) 20:11, 15 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The ai/a'i (アィ/アイ) part of the proposal makes sense, but the same rule could extend to other vowel conjunctions (such as au in ざぅ ((Shiver/Frye/Big Man/Callie/Marie:) うぃどり ふぃざぅ ちゅ)). I wonder if this would alter the romanizations too much.
  • For the ow (オゥ) proposal, I would say no. The English phonology might pronounce ow differently like in words cow vs. row. The English word bow have two pronunciations that would give ow enough ambiguity.
  • Sokuon (っ) at the end of a word romanized as an apostrophe was an established practice, although it's not part of Hepburn. I would say no to copying the consonant of the next word as that makes things more complicated than necessary. (So, キッ トゥナ/ki' tuna, キッ シュナ/ki' shuna.)
Explorer09 (talk) 23:43, 15 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The point of the Ink Pump step of the proposal is to get more people to speak on that point. If your only criticisms are on the specific details of the proposal, is this okay to send to the Ink Pump? ArgentuTA164 (talk) 23:57, 15 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Your proposal looks complete enough to move to the Ink Pump. I actually don't care about the wordings because it's still informal discussions at this stage. Not a policy draft page or a formal vote. Explorer09 (talk) 00:04, 16 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Daybreaker Anthem

@Argentu. I've edited the lyrics of that page (Daybreaker Anthem) in which I added parentheses to some lines sung simultaneously. Does the official booklet have parentheses marked on them? If not there should be a footnote clarifying such. Because in the printed lyric sheet (if any), lines sung together with another should have the second line in parentheses or else the reader can be confused with sequential lines. That's the reminder. Explorer09 (talk) 02:17, 14 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

There are no parentheses in the book, I had already taken measures to make it clear the lines were being sung simultaneously. May I revert it? ArgentuTA164 (talk) 02:59, 14 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Would you please explain how is your method better for indicating simultaneous lyrics? Explorer09 (talk) 10:11, 14 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Wait. I think I may miss something. If the booklet doesn't mark lyrics with parentheses, then maybe the lyrics were sequential in the first place but we misread them.
Is it not possible that the lyrics are actually like this:
(Shiver/Frye:) うぇてぃ のとみゅれ えしても / おねのねのん
(Shiver/Frye:) みてんりの ほのゆ もとれのいで / こすたりびて
(Frye:) ウェディ マトゥビュレ ペンシティェモ / オネノネノン ((Shiver:) (vocalizing))
(Frye:) ニペンディノ パトリュ モドレダンビテ / ノプラディ ビテ ((Shiver:) (vocalizing))
Since I don't have the album, it's very difficult for me to verify. I'm not sure if Inkipedia rules permit this, but may I get a photograph copy of the booklet page in a private email? Use Special:EmailUser/Explorer09 and I can provide my private email address. Explorer09 (talk) 12:06, 14 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Sorry it took me all afternoon to reply, I was a bit busy and then had to double check to make sure I hadn't lost my mind while writing the lyrics.
I can confirm it was not that due to very close listening as I was doing it. If you listen to the first chorus, you'll hear at the end Frye singing "nopradi bite" while Shiver sings "kostaribite".
I'm also personally not comfortable with sharing my emails, sorry. ArgentuTA164 (talk) 00:01, 15 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Okay I have to ask because it's bugging me to no end: why the line breaks? ArgentuTA164 (talk) 21:24, 16 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Album listing module

I got Module:Sandbox/UnderFlorence/Album listing completely implemented now and got feedback from some other folks that it looks good, now I just wanna get your feedback before I release it to mainspace. A bit of weirdness is that the "artist jp" and "title jp" columns aren't actual columns but are only added to the "artist" and "title" columns, respectively, but I think that's alright at the end of the day (and I think anything else would require another separator character, which has its own host of issues). If you think it looks alright, I'll get working on writing an actual doc and release it to mainspace. underFlorence (talk | contribs) 09:52, 7 January 2025 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I would say the new template looks quite impressive, according to the example track listings in your doc page. However, I would suggest some tweaks on the sort keys since you have the table sortable now.
According to MediaWiki documentation, you can set data-sort-type and data-sort-value attributes on the table cells to adjust the sorting behaviours. There are two things I wish to see on the sorting:
  • The disc and track numbers (two) columns should ideally sort the same way and have identical sort keys, that is data-sort-value="<disc number>-<track number>", for example data-sort-value="3-01" for disc 3 track 1. Sorting only the track number without the disc number won't make sense unless the album is one disc only.
  • "N/A" in artist names should have the sort key of an empty string.
Another thing in your example is that I don't like IRL artist names to be listed as "Unspecified" while your footnotes already denote multiple artists. I would suggest you just write "Multiple artists" in the table cells instead. This is my personal opinion - the issue can be discussed further with other Inkipedia people when needed. Explorer09 (talk) 17:02, 7 January 2025 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Re: the disc and track numbers being sortable: yeah, this makes a ton of sense. I'm wondering if it'd be sensible to add another header row to have a merged cell to sort, though I'm assuming that's not going to actually be all that doable.
Re: N/A: I was considering doing this but was on the edge, so this is enough to push me over.
Re: "Unspecified": The thing is that it's not like we know that all of the listed artists actually did all of the songs for that band - in particular, based on some songs from the "Behind the scenes" features, we know that, for example, #47 onward was done by Kairi Hamada in particular. As such, we can't realistically claim that each of the artists were actually responsible for each of the songs. The phrasing of the footnotes is to show that this group of real-life artists were responsible for this in-game artist, but we have no way of knowing how this works out on a per-song basis, which is why I opted for "and/or" in the footnotes. Each song might be done by just one of the artists, or some combination, or all of them, but we do not know how exactly. underFlorence (talk | contribs) 17:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I thought I made something about a header row that's sortable before (it's been years since I did that in another wiki). I knew that's possible but I have to recall how I did that before.
As for "unspecified" artists. I actually believe it's okay for the whole team to be credited (since they all work under the Nintendo label). It's not our job to pick the details of who is responsible to what. It just seems to me that the "unspecified" word suggests the wiki editors are at fault, where it's simply the source information didn't tell the details. Explorer09 (talk) 18:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC)Reply[reply]
This might be a case of misunderstanding? In this case, "Unspecified" is referring to it being unspecified in the album. Would you prefer if it was changed to "Unspecified in album credits" or similar?
And I would argue it is our "job" (as much as anything is a wiki editor's job) to give accurate information where we can. In cases like the Behind the Scenes videos that show the proper composers in the sheet music, that information should be used on the wiki in order to be more precise. Outright claiming that, say, demol1sh was produced by multiple composers is making a clear statement of certainty on our side, and we shouldn't be more specific than we know the information at hand to be, in my opinion.
Edit: In any case, since this discussion is not about the template itself but about the contents supplied into the template, I'll go ahead with moving it to mainspace (since the Ordertune page already has the Unspecified labels to begin with, so it's currently not a functional change to move it over). underFlorence (talk | contribs) 09:09, 8 January 2025 (UTC)Reply[reply]
How about the word "(Unspecific)" and in parentheses? Slightly better than the word "unspecified", IMO. Explorer09 (talk) 09:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I don't think having the only content in a table cell be in parantheses is a good look - it adds additional information to parse that is a) not immediately obvious what it's saying (does it mean it's a less important entry? If so, why doesn't "N/A" get parantheses?) and b) redundant (since whatever the tagline is would not exist without parantheses in any case). I also do think that "Unspecified" is more apt here than "Unspecific" - it's not that this being unspecific is some inherent quality of the information, it's particularly that the information has been unspecified by Nintendo (or more specifically, whoever decided on crediting the composers like this) in the credits of the album. In fact, I'd argue that "Unspecific" feels more like "the wiki editor(s) don't know how to parse the information at hand" (or other circumstances that would put the blame on the wiki editors) than "Unspecified" does.
Also, re: the header stuff that I meant to mention: I think it's not really necessary in the first place since I think it sorts intuitively in the first place, plus when testing I ran into the baseline issue of what to even call such a unified header cell. "Track order?" underFlorence (talk | contribs) 09:23, 8 January 2025 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I suggest not to merge the header cells of Disc No. and Track No. Making them separate can easily tell which column does what. Explorer09 (talk) 09:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC)Reply[reply]