Talk:Octotune (Splatoon 2 Original Soundtrack)

Lyrics

Someone had a video of the soundtrack earlier today and opened the pamphlet to reveal the lyrics. Ebb and Flow is next to but separated from Fly Octo Fly, we should probably represent this in the article somehow

Also in order for me to help translate, I need a clean scan. I don't want to trust the beginnings since there have been mistakes made before due to lack of understanding or some other reason. I will not translate if there's simply gana on the page.

I haven't gotten mine yet so I want to wait until it does. Pinkolol16 (talk) 06:17, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

The reason why I didn't separate Fly Octo Fly and Ebb and Flow is because we don't have separate music files for them yet. When I get my copy, which will be on the 19th in the US, I'll upload them and separate the section into two. I will also provide scans if no one has uploaded them yet as soon as I can, although I'm not sure if you'll need them by then (hopefully the YouTuber who had the previous album's scans will come through soon). I wasn't planning on attempting any other songs, just Into the Light as it's the one I was most curious about and couldn't really wait, heh. I can say I was more careful with this one than with previous attempts, but of course, the video's quality is nowhere near as good as a scan would be, so I'll look over it again when a better source is acquired. Hadamsj (talk) 06:55, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

It's in the tracklist that they'll be separate. You're not linking the music files yet so why the need to stuff together the lyrics? Especially if they're gonna be separate anyway. I just do not want to attempt to translate simple gana on the page as there have been mistakes before (gatougachenira when it was gatoubichenira, for colour pulse, and I wasn't the one who put the japanese lyrics there) and since i don't have my copy yet, i can't verify anything without a clean scan. Pinkolol16 (talk) 08:50, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

See this is why I don't like editing your broken kana. I typically test audibly with the files I have. Is there an official SCAN, not an audible video or what not, a SCAN of these stupid lyrics yet? I'd nlike to not have to lay you with your own damn mistakes Pinkolol16 (talk) 20:35, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

The kana that I inserted today is not my work this time, but from this video's description. It's still the 18th in the USA, so just... chill a bit. Hadamsj (talk) 21:32, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Hi Hadamsj and Pinkolol16, I really appreciate both of your efforts in romanizing the lyrics. With all due respect, I believe romanization should be standardized and not up to personal interpretation. Native Japanese usually say こんにちは so fast that it sounds like konchwa, but it should still be romanized as KONNICHIWA to reflect all syllables, as is done in textbooks and JSL courses. The artists may have slurred some vowels for style, but I feel it is too objective and unorthodox to stray from the rules of romanization. (Just like if we're going for Hepburn instead of Kunrei, ふ will become fu and not hu, but never just f.) If neither of you have any objections/replies before the end of month, I will change everything to proper romanization with ending vowels. Hadaasharpedo (talk) 16:36, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

I can't speak for Pinkolol16 (who did most of the work after the first album's release, if not all of it), but I don't have any objections. Hadamsj (talk) 00:32, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Thank you Hadamsj-san. Pinkolol16-san is welcome to this conversation, but I added the vowels back earlier than I said, as my real life schedule has changed. Hadaasharpedo (talk) 01:56, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

The problem with this is that when people are going to actually hear the songs, as I do when translating, they are not going to hear 'purasti' because the way it's pronounced, 'pu' is just simply not even there, the way I'm romanising it is relevant TO THE SONGS THEMSELVES when you hear them. Yes slurring creates other effects but to the people reading, it's going to heavily confuse them it you leave syllables in there for them to pronounce that aren't there. It even confuses me, lemme use Acid Hues as an example, it says 'chasu chasu pasu' but you never hear the u sounds in the songs and it would slow someone down if they were attempting to sing along, the purpose of even typing them on the site to begin with. People would think those vowels are mandatory, in which, they aren't.

I was taught long time ago that the Japanese use 'desu' (the hiragana symbols for) and it really means 'des' because they cut off the u, they don't mean it. This 'cutting off' I've reflected wherever I can hear them in the actual songs, especially for those who can't even listen in deep to the filters, if we leave 'purasti' as it is for say nasty majesty, it will be harder for them to actually understand the song, because most of those syllables are slurred and cut off, and english people running off japanese knowledge for syllables will wonder why they have to say 'pu' when in the song it's just a 'p' sound because of editing.

The people primarily looking at this page are english speakers. The way I formatted the words before is mostly in service to that as the japanese know how to pronounce those syllables already in most cases, hell they can even buy the soundtrack locally. And if we leave in useless syllables, they won't know how the song is supposed to sound.

Trust me I have slowed all of these songs down to tremendous amounts to be able to tell the filters in these. Some of these syllables just plain aren't there.

I would appreciate it if you reverted it back for these reasons. I'd also have liked to be alerted sooner, this is precisely why I almost left the wiki because of nonsensical decisions like this for the earlier songs. No thank you please

If you need an example, someone on youtube by the name of Cochu-U put up a video on the squid sisters's lyrics translated into romaji. Google Translate, mind you, what it spits out for the hiragana. The video ended up being very poor due to lack of localisation ('fu ~e' is just vomit) and barely anyone knew there. Meanwhile, I provided the localised + romanised lyrics of Off the Hook's songs from Splatune and I've received practically no complaints, just people refusing to read the description after a 3 second disclaimer but no one's directly said 'your lyrics need work' or 'they're too hard' I even got a meme comment of the acid hues line I mentioned. So clearly, that was fine, why not this?

And your point about konnichiwa, people are going to be able to tell for an actual word sure, but not the made up gibberish that these sheets are made up of. Especially not knowing some of them are slurred beforehand, better to know they aren't there in most cases for the people who know LESS than I do, regardless of 'standard romanisation' practices

not every syllable is pronounced in these songs and if we pull off the illusion they are that's plain misinformation and that's bad.

Pinkolol16 (talk) 11:36, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Another suggestion, I noticed with the pearl interview we can colour text. How about, instead of turning hiragana into lowercase and katakana into uppercase (that really shouldn't be the distinction, marina isn't shouting all her lines and pearl isn't calmly rapping all the time either) we make the lines relevant to their colours? I have no idea how to do that in wiki code, but if it's possible in the interview, we can make it possible for the lyrics. Pinkolol16 (talk) 12:11, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

For the while I've put it back to the previous lyrics (with alterations since alyzana didn't put tu instead of tou) because I seriously do not think we should be promoting the case differences along with the above. I apologise if I've broken a rule or something, I want to negotiate this and I hate not knowing anything about this when most of it was my work (which I would also be displaying in a video later down the line)

I'm far more active on twitter and the like and it's my fault I never got to look at this sooner, but I had no idea this would pop up, no one said ANYTHING when i did the same for splatune 2 and now suddenly we get one for octotune?

while we negotiate, leave it as such, and otherwise. My points still stand about how people who're coming to the page for the first time with little knowledge of the japanese language will think those vowels are there and that being a bad thing.

Heck, we leave the japanese syllables there anyway as well, so why the need to 'have the original' when we have the original literally below it? makes no sense. Anyone can go to a hiragana parser and stuff it in there and receive the original if it's that bad, at least it's there right?

If you need to negotiate more I'll try and check in the coming days but I'm far more active on twitter as mentioned. If this concerns the lyrics, I desperately want to know. Pinkolol16 (talk) 12:53, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

I agree, we should have it colored. Just... letting you know. if you want to test it and see how it looks, it would be

{{color|Testya sharinhei|Pearl|ingame}} is Testya sharinhei.
{{color|Bra! Fadisakshun|Marina|ingame}} is Bra! Fadisakshun.

Also, sorry about the "tou vs. tu" thing. My mistake. I'll try to pay attention. My dumb self believed that "tu" would be "トュ".

—Alyzana

I think that should suffice on its own. I apologise for my behaviour by the way, I take full responsibility (and I'm waiting for a ban for it honestly).

But that colour thing should suffice for this page and splatune 2's. Case just looks unprofessional and it's inaccurate anyway, hiragana and katakana don't correlate to how cases work in english.

And my points above still stand. Pinkolol16 (talk) 15:33, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

There's no need for any ban, and I appreciate your response and rationale. I did wait for 5 days though so I admit no fault for my one-sided change. I wholeheartedly agree to using color (as long as there's some kind of distinction between Inkling and Octoling language since the official lyrics made this an important point), and case was just a quick-and-dirty fix. Now for my rebuttal.

The parsing is just too "subjective" and nonstandard. As a 22-year Japanese speaker who has a 6-year experience in fansubbing, I have never seen it done this way even in anime songs that contain gibberish lines. Plus, it is inconsistent. Take Shark Bytes for example, you have both "Kyu! Shastouderi mesyu" (twice) and "mesUyu" (once) even though they're the same line. Before we chalk it up to typo, mesyu would be ambiguously mistaken for メシュ instead of the intended メスユ. See where I'm going with this? Even if your version is intended for native English speakers, your transliteration system creates unnecessary ambiguity versus the standard vowel style. A nonstandard system should not belong to a wiki but instead in your personal youtube video.

My ears hear differently than yours. When Pearl says ふりあぞ, I hear Fu-ri-a-zo (4 syllables) while you chose to just put Fri-a-zo (3), and I disagree with that and in many more instances. Besides, if we were to replicate your style in your absence, where do we draw the line? In Ebb and Flow, I would argue that the "shuridaspratun" part is a reference to Splatoon and should be "shuridaSPLATUN" if we go by your "what's actually said" logic. So when and where should I omit the vowels or alter the romanization? As your personal system lacks a guideline for others to follow, and on wiki no less, it is again best suited for personal use.

The above are my main points. As for "they didn't pronounce most of the vowels", no one using the standardized Hepburn system says you should pronounce all of the vowels. Just like while we tell foreigners to say Wenz-day when they see Wednesday, we don't go ahead and invent a spelling of "Wenzday" for them or for anyone. (Speling Reform Asoshiashun tried it and failed). I expect you to see Purasuti and read Prasti, but it doesn't merit using a nonstandardized, personal system on wiki.

The "why hasn't anyone else raised an objection before, as in Splatune?" argument is mute as I did not notice this until now. It surely doesn't mean I can't jump in and wish to adhere to what has been done in a standardized way. I do agree it may be a convenient, "mnemonic" way for viewers to sing along in your youtube video, but it'll still be Oppan Pinkolo Style.

(I will not touch anything until your response :) ) Hadaasharpedo (talk) 20:47, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Because I'm gonna be linking the wiki for text versions which'll be updated, my video for off the hook is already slightly outdated due to errors and if people need updates it's here, simple as that.

the extra mesuyu is a mistake that i left in since i didn't check it. whoops, on me.

I've slowed the songs down. There is no 'fu' and it's too fast that any english speaker is going to perceive it as necessary. You are not pronouncing 'fu' in full in the song, it just doesn't happen. We don't keep 'ue' as that for songs that have it, it changes to 'we' because that's what people are going to hear in english, same thing with this stuff.

I know about it referencing splatoon, i don't feel it should suddenly turn into an l though because then that suddenly creates inconsistency with the rest (japan doesn't have l's, in fact in live in makuhari they typed 'la' in english), what you're concerning me with now.

An english speaker again is going to perceive extra vowels as necessary to be spoken. Those vowels aren't, it doesn't matter if it's standardised, it's GIBBERISH, and it's cut off. The point of it isn't just to cut-paste to straight romaji in these instances because they're made up words. Someone hearing 'purasuti' is going to perceive every single vowel as one that needs to be pronounced. It's not, and this will confuse them. Doesn't matter if it's fast, at that point, you need to eliminate the sounds that aren't there.

and the original japanese text is still there anyway. if they mean to cut off some things that should be reflected. You translating years of experience might hear those vowels but again, I've slowed these songs down, someone who knows possibly even less than me won't hear a 'pu' in 'prasti' they'll just hear a p sound, a 'prr' that's very fast.

I disagree with the friazo as i'll listen to remixes and that part only has 3 sounds in them and otherwise, people are only going to hear the 'fu' for such a short period of time it's not even a 'fu' and they need to cut it off.

There's already enough issue with people being unable to perceive the lyrics properly because of looking up videos and such where people'll put plain english lyrics where they aren't, it won't help people if we put in vowels where they clearly aren't in any of these songs.

Live in Makuhari for example has examples of this where there were extra t's placed before certain syllables where they weren't there in the kana. This so english speakers can understand there's emphasis placed on things like 'cho' and such, no different from helping people here by filtering out the ones that aren't useful when listening. I don't believe I did live in makuhari, although I edited small stuff then like typo fixes and such (mostly left romaji as is though)

Especially to the people coming here knowing barely anything about japanese and they try to pronounce purasuti slowly, now that's a nightmare, especially if the u's are cut off and aren't there.

It might be bothersome to you and even me sometimes but especially if this is going to mostly be an english wiki it helps to have something to help propel for the ones who'll listen and not hear certain things.

and the original text is always there for those who do know it, in its original format anyway.

another example, the original splatune (which i know i barely touched as i don't have that one) has 't'yu' in Ink Me Up, the song in particular isn't really saying 'tyu' how even in later songs they have it, it sounds more like 'tya' but the apostrophe is there (I wouldn't put it there personally but whatever) and especially myself back when it first was put up was fine, and not a single person came to us about 'standardising' that to simply be 'tyu' then and it's fine, especially in relevance to the actual song

because the only one we're gonna have vocals-only is city of colour for some time, the rest is going to be obscured by a filter with only lyrics that in some cases may be awkwardly placed

i slowed them to check this

the romanised lyrics are in the end for english speakers, what's the point if it's just a direct rip of the japanese one when it isn't and especially not when you hear it?

it all falls apart also when you compare it to real words as these are gibberish and are running off of their own strange logic, of course you wouldn't romanise an actual japanese word wrong or make up a spelling for an english word but these gibberish words don't fully pronounce themselves. Especially when you hear them, however unreliable, again, I repeat, I slowed these down.

and also i didn't mean ban for HERE but on the page itself. i know what i did.

Also, regarding 'mesyu' being perceived as 'meshu' i'm pretty sure that important consonants like that would be left in if they were there like that. But it's not pronounced like that, or too fast that anyone reading that would think the 'su' has a presence when it's like 'desu' and cut off.

Pinkolol16 (talk) 21:31, 31 July 2018 (UTC)