Talk:Shiver: Difference between revisions

From Inkipedia, the Splatoon wiki
Latest comment: 16 November 2023 by Spleet in topic Blue, Indigo or Purple?
VisualWikitext
(→‎Gender: Reply)
m (Badabing badaboom)
 
(99 intermediate revisions by 38 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
==Source for gender==
{{notice|header=Talk:Shiver|content=Archives of old discussions are available [[Talk:Shiver/Archives|here]]. Inactive topics should be archived when this page reaches 35 topics or 60,000 bytes. <small>Current page size is {{#ifexpr:{{PAGESIZE:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|R}}>60000|<span style="color:red">{{PAGESIZE:{{FULLPAGENAME}}}}</span>|{{PAGESIZE:{{FULLPAGENAME}}}}}} bytes.</small>
Do we have a source for Shiver's gender? Let's not make twitter claims from randoms the factual basis for the character [[User:Pinkolol16|Pinkolol16]] ([[User talk:Pinkolol16|talk]]) 05:56, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
}}


:The person who’s changing it is a VANDAL and must be blocked. I have already left a message on Shahar’s talk page and on the Inkipedia discord. [[User:SplatonGamer123|OrderSquid38]] ([[User talk:SplatonGamer123|talk]]) 05:59, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
== Is a long "gender" section really neccessary? ==
:It seems the Portuguese Nintendo twitter account uses "pela" to refer to shiver, which is the femenine form of "por".
:I don't know if this wiki takes other languages as canon or waits until the English version confirms. [[User:RollForItto|RollForItto]] ([[User talk:RollForItto|talk]]) 16:25, 13 August 2022 (UTC)


== Gender ==
I think it's good to add in the wikipedia page that Shiver's gender was unclarified when she was revealed. However, I feel that this would be more appropriate as a short section in "trivia" rather than a full section of her page. It feels unneccessary to bring up and makes it seem like a central part of her character. [[User:Tentiquills|Tentiquills]] ([[User talk:Tentiquills|talk]]) 14:42, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
All, please stop accusing good-faith editors as vandals. Admins are not going to block editors who are acting in good-faith.


We should cite our sources, yes the "obvious" included. One viewpoint is not the only viewpoint, for example it is not obvious that Shiver is female as their white top is a bandage which would indicate transmasc.
:I agree with this. The page is too long on its own. I think we should just remove the gender section and just put it in the trivia. [[User:WolfTamer|WolfTamer]][[File:RotM Icon Agent 1.png|30px]] 19:34, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
In future, please start a discussion on [[Inkipedia:Discord|Discord]] or on the talkpage.
:I agree, I feel like a much shorter trivia point would be much more relevant since Shiver's gender debates outdated a long time ago, and they have nothing related to the game itself, only to the fanbase. [[File:S3_Badge_Flyfish_100.png|signature|30px]]<span style="font-family:Splatoon2">[[User:Milchik|Milchik]] ([[User talk:Milchik|talk]])</span> 20:05, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
:This was recently discussed on this exact page; I stand by believing the best course of action would be moving the information to the pre-release/unused content pages as the topic is worth documenting. It should not be fully removed from the wiki. A trivia point with a link to the moved information would work very well. Also please note that Wikipedia is an entirely different wiki. [[User:Yoshifan52|Yoshifan52]] ([[User talk:Yoshifan52|talk]]) 21:33, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
::I didn't know we have such page, but I like Yoshifan's idea. [[File:S3_Badge_Flyfish_100.png|signature|30px]]<span style="font-family:Splatoon2">[[User:Milchik|Milchik]] ([[User talk:Milchik|talk]])</span> 21:52, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
:::The prerelease article is for documenting prerelease information. I've gone ahead and moved the section [[Unused content in Splatoon 3#Shiver's gender|here]] and added the related trivia point to this article. [[User:Yoshifan52|Yoshifan52]] ([[User talk:Yoshifan52|talk]]) 21:57, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
::I misspoke and called it wikipedia on accident, that was my bad sorry. also thank you for moving it to prerelease! [[User:Tentiquills|Tentiquills]] ([[User talk:Tentiquills|talk]]) 11:50, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
:::No worries, and no need to apologize, I just wanted to make sure there's no confusion there. Happy to help! [[User:Yoshifan52|Yoshifan52]] ([[User talk:Yoshifan52|talk]]) 06:18, 23 August 2023 (UTC)


We may want to move to using "Pronouns" instead of "Gender" on character infoboxes.
== Last Name ==


Regardless, I have yet to see any pronouns for Shiver in any material, and until we have a good citation, I do not want Inkipedia to confirm a gender (and be wrong) {{User:Slate/Sig}} 11:03, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
I'm creating a discussion here to avoid an edit war. I believe that it is very clear that her last name is "Hohojiro", the devs wouldn't have added the name to the family crest sticker if not. There's been discussion in the discord as well and the majority agrees. Unless there is any evidence specifically pointing towards it not being her last name, we should keep it on the page. {{User:Krisbear/Sig}} 17:16, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
:I’m fairly certain that Shiver is female. Most fans have called her "she" and "her", and her Spanish name is "Megan". Nintendo hasn’t explicitly confirmed this yet, but I do believe she’s female. [[User talk: WolfTamer|WolfTamer]] [[File:S2 Icon Callie 3.png|30px]] 11:52, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
::Understood, however the French localization uses "Pasquale" which is masculine, rather than "Pasquala" which would indicate feminine. So it appears that we cannot infer from the localizations either. Let's wait until we have confirmation from a Nintendo source. {{User:Slate/Sig}} 12:07, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
:::Pasquale is pretty rare and used, just like the more common Pascale, neutraly. Pasquala isn't french as far as I know.
:::Given we yet have very little in the way of actual dialogue and only English, French and German use gender-neutral names (all of which are secondary languages), I feel like the section should be purged of theorycrafting until further information is given, and replaced with a statement about the current lack of information while the page continues using "they/them" as per the wiki rules (and common sense).
:::Talk should continue to happen in the Talk page though as we learn more and more, and the claim DDdreamer heard about feminine pronoun in japanese would be interesting to verify [[User:Raykable|Raykable]] ([[User talk:Raykable|talk]]) 02:27, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
:<nowiki>I think it would be alright to get rid of the 'gender' section in the infoboxes, but I don't think it should be replaced with a section for pronouns because they can already be seen from their use in the article. </nowiki>  {{User:GX 64/Sig}} 12:14, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
::If other users would like a pronoun section to be added I am completely fine with it, I just think it is a little bit redundant since the pronouns are already there {{User:GX 64/Sig}} 14:11, 11 August 2022 (UTC)


:::Pronouns would work!! It is important to know that pronouns don’t equal gender so I feel like we should have both gender and pronouns (ex. Marina, Gender: female Pronouns: She/her) I would also like to say that we NEED to leave Shiver’s pronouns as they/them and gender as unspecified because in most languages (besides french) there is no words that indicate a specific gender!! (Question though are the masculine terms in french used when you don’t know someone’s gender? From what I know I don’t think the language has a lot of gender neutral terms) But when we get the pronouns and gender we can change it!! Just because the past idols have been female DOESN’T MEAN SHIVER IS!! So guys please don’t change their gender and pronouns to female and she/her!! We can do that if they are confirmed female!! <span style="font-family: Splatoon;">[[User:Oddlildude|<span style="color: purple;">Oddlildude</span>]] ([[User talk:Oddlildude|<span style="color: gold;">talk</span>]])[[file:AnemoneNo1.jpeg|28px]]</span> 02:54, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
:New [https://youtube.com/watch?v=lvlum5eg3_I video] early showcasing the Deep Cut amiibo confirms it is Hohojiro indeed! [[User:Spleet|Spleet]] ([[User talk:Spleet|talk]]) 10:44, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::::So I know this isn't a hard confirmation, but I heard she uses the pronoun "uchi", which is one of the most feminine ones in japanese. Could anyone check the japanese subs and confirm? [[User:DDdreamer|DDdreamer]] ([[User talk:DDdreamer|talk]]) 08:22, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
:I think it would be much less controversial and unbiased if the gender section included a counterargument for her lack of gender, such as how her body shape, voice, names in several languages, and clothing are all explicitly feminine. Additionally, her Sarashi is also a traditionally female piece of clothing, often used with a kemono to bind breasts for traditional Japanese dancers. I don't think this is 100% proof that shes female, but the way the article is written currently seems to be a bit biased towards the conclusion that her gender is unclear.
:I will agree that some of the edits seem to be a bit petty, but ultimately reasonable given the standards present for every other female character in the series. I wish people could have a more civil and productive discussion about this. [[User:Rixor14|Rixor14]] ([[User talk:Rixor14|talk]]) 03:33, 13 August 2022 (UTC)


== Theory on gender ==
== Blue, Indigo or Purple? ==


I think that Shiver is female because of her eyebrows. It is (probably) well-known that female and male octolings have different eyes, with the female ones having a point at the bottom outer corner. If you look at any example of octolings, you can also see that the female ones universally (as far as I've seen) have shorter eyebrows. This has led me to conjecture that the smaller eyebrows indicate female, (it also applies to inklings), and therefore Shiver is female. Just a theory though. [[User:Wilh3lm|Wilh3lm]] ([[User talk:Wilh3lm|talk]]) 00:36, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
A minor nitpick on Shiver (and other Splatoon 3 characters)'s color. Technically, I don't think Shiver's color classifies as ''blue''. It is pretty much a cold purple, also called indigo. The same color is present on the tentacles of Acht and the default playable Octoling depicted in artwork (commonly known as Hiro iirc). The curious thing is that Hiro's amiibo is called "Octoling (Blue)" (and in the most recent Splatfest dialogue, Shiver herself calls Frye's fingers "blue" despite them being a warmer purple than Shiver's own hair). Are they actually blue, though? All of the things I mentioned are literally closer to purple than blue (and as for Shiver, I think she does reflect the purple in the Splatoon 3 logo, with the other colors being yellow and gray)… I don't know. Maybe my color perception is different, lol. Whaddya think? [[User:Spleet|Spleet]] ([[User talk:Spleet|talk]]) 10:42, 16 November 2023 (UTC)


:As much as I believe Shiver is female, we do not have any evidence from Nintendo that she is.  [[User:OrderSquid38|OrderSquid38]] ([[User talk:OrderSquid38|talk]]) 00:37, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
:There's been back-and-forth edits on this in the past and even after a lengthy discussion in the Discord (that got a little weirdly heated) nobody could agree what specific color(s) to call it; it's clearly at least close enough to blue to cause substantial confusion. Additionally, the color isn't depicted with 100% consistency and varies depending on lighting or the source (whether it's Shiver's hair, her clothes, her ink, icons/logos representing her/her family, etc). "Two-tone blue" is the most reasonable compromise we can have short of including multiple actual color hexes or RGB values, which would look pretty informal and sloppy. [[User:Driftin Soul|Driftin Soul]] ([[User talk:Driftin Soul|talk]]) 13:25, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:Eyebrows don’t really indicate gender. Yes, the octolings and inklings did do that in the first two games but now you can customize the eyebrows!! So now a boy inkling can have small eyebrows and a girl inkling can have thick eyebrows!! In real life you don’t walk up to someone and say they are a boy because of their eyebrows!! (I’m very sorry if I came off rude!! I understand where you’re coming from a little bit but I wanna let ya know this!!) <span style="font-family: Splatoon;">[[User:Oddlildude|<span style="color: purple;">Oddlildude</span>]] ([[User talk:Oddlildude|<span style="color: gold;">talk</span>]])[[file:AnemoneNo1.jpeg|28px]]</span> 03:11, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
:Second what Driftin says above, plus, we always go with source material wherever possible. Having Nintendo call it blue in both amiibo form and in-game doesn't leave us with much wiggle room :) {{User:Slate/Sig}} 14:18, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::Here's the thing. Literally every single known example *including the customization screen* shows a clear distinction between the "styles" with long and short eyebrows, and the short eyebrows on octolings are always (afaik) shown in with the known eye corners. Even different eyebrow variants are most likely still limited, although there may be similar "long" and "short" types. [[User:Wilh3lm|Wilh3lm]] ([[User talk:Wilh3lm|talk]]) 10:23, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
::Oh ok, thank you. I'm not in the Discord server, so I wasn't aware of the discussion here! Thanks anyway. [[User:Spleet|Spleet]] ([[User talk:Spleet|talk]]) 18:27, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::Forgive me if this is a bit out-of-line, but if I can make a suggestion, I don't think the exclamation points in your posts are sending the message you want them to send. I'm sure it wasn't your intention, but to me, that makes your speech read as a bit overly-confident and passive aggressive. I would recommend trying to take a more professional tone when dealing with issues like this in the future, you'd be surprised how far it goes when it comes to reasoning with people and having an overall better discussion. [[User:Rixor14|Rixor14]] ([[User talk:Rixor14|talk]]) 03:43, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
 
==Can we lock the page?==
Someone keeps changing shiver’s gender to female and pronouns to she/her so can we please lock the page if possible and have an admin or bureaucrat edit it so they/them is used and the gender is set as Unspecified?? <span style="font-family: Splatoon;">[[User:Oddlildude|<span style="color: purple;">Oddlildude</span>]] ([[User talk:Oddlildude|<span style="color: gold;">talk</span>]])[[file:AnemoneNo1.jpeg|28px]]</span> 03:14, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
:My edits are in good faith. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Inkipedia:Policy/Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:ShiverisFemale|ShiverisFemale]] ([[User talk:ShiverisFemale|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShiverisFemale|contribs]]) 03:38, 12 August 2022 (UTC)</span>
:*Whether good faith or not; '''this has become ''disruptive''''' as well as spurning some negative behavior from other as a result. It is counterproductive to be in a cycle of people reverting each other. Disagreements should be respectfully discussed and settled through reaching some kind of consensus. In this case, we already had a sysop come along and place a comment stating to not change the text in the infobox until we had a credible source cited. And regardless of the infobox or whatever the factually accurate answer for that is, there was no justification given for removing the section of the article documenting the notably unusual manner that this character has been described to us.<br>'''Until everyone can be respectful and productive, the page ''should'' be protected.''' —[[User:Ikaheishi|Ikaheishi]] ([[User talk:Ikaheishi|talk]]) 04:30, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
:**I added the protection notice!! Hopefully soon an admin or bureaucrat will see and protect the page!! (If the protection is removed please put it back up! just search protection templates and ya should find it!!) <span style="font-family: Splatoon;">[[User:Oddlildude|<span style="color: purple;">Oddlildude</span>]] ([[User talk:Oddlildude|<span style="color: gold;">talk</span>]])[[file:AnemoneNo1.jpeg|28px]]</span> 04:53, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
I agree on the idea of locking the page. One form of the page utilizes information to reach a logical conclusion, but many edits are removing this without meeting the same standard of evidence, and worst of all being repeatedly made without discussion amid repeated deletion of the steps taken to reach a conclusion. If an attempt to ignore the process of consensus is going to be a repeated issue then limiting options to encourage discussions to take priority is a good idea. [[User:Talons235|Talons235]] ([[User talk:Talons235|talk]]) 05:23, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
::Edit warring is not [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith| acting in good-faith]]. Creating a new account solely to put your point across rather than discussing with your fellow editors is not good-faith (and I strongly suspect sockpuppeting too, which is against our established policies). I've protected the page. {{User:Slate/Sig}} 06:55, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
:::Thank you slate!! It really stinks we have to do this!! I dunno why people think we’re wrong to have the gender as unspecified!! Even if Shiver looks like a girl to some that doesn’t mean they are!! We are playing it safe because there hasn’t been any gendered terms in any language (I checked with french and the masculine terms ARE used for when you don’t know someone’s gender) <span style="font-family: Splatoon;">[[User:Oddlildude|<span style="color: purple;">Oddlildude</span>]] ([[User talk:Oddlildude|<span style="color: gold;">talk</span>]])[[file:AnemoneNo1.jpeg|28px]]</span> 14:21, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
::: Definitely. Likewise, even if Shiver does dress androgynously, that does not mean that they are not female. But the only evidence we have from sources is a seemingly intentional ''lack of'' gendered terms. I'm sure we'll all look back on this moment and either have a good laugh about it or realise we accidentally stumbled on something.  {{User:Slate/Sig}} 16:01, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 
==Signature colour==
 
Hello everyone,
I was wondering if it has been stated officially that Shiver's signature colour is blue?
Because if not, I'd argue that it's purple (with a heavy blue undertone).
The background here¹ is purple (Big Man's is red, Frye's is yellow – both their respective colours) and Shiver's top is also purple, while the hair is purple and blue.
Additionally, purple is in line with the game's colour theme, so it would make sense (Frye = yellow, Shiver = purple).
 
However, if it's just me who sees it like that, then I shall accept that without a problem! :)
I just thought it's purple.
 
¹https://i.imgur.com/zvugwWl.jpeg
 
[[User:SLATE O|SLATE O]] ([[User talk:SLATE O|talk]]) 04:32, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 
:I would say that it is neither blue nor purple, but rather a variety of '''blue-violet'''. Aside from splatfest teams, purple ink seems to be the hallmark of the Octarian forces. — [[User:Ikaheishi|Ikaheishi]] ([[User talk:Ikaheishi|talk]]) 05:00, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 
I completely forgot about the existence of the term "violet". :''D
Should we use blue-violet in that case?
 
[[User:SLATE O|SLATE O]] ([[User talk:SLATE O|talk]]) 07:43, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 
: Seems more violet but I think the blue comes from the splatfest colours (blue/yellow/red). I like the game pallette idea though. {{User:Slate/Sig}} 08:41, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 
==Edit request==
As I'm currently unable to edit anything on here due to the page-lock, I would like to make a short request.
 
Can someone please swap the order of the kanji/romaji and hànzì/pinyin in the "meaning" section of the name table.
 
Initially, I put pinyin first because I saw someone do the same with romaji in Japanese.
However, I thought about it again, and these (meaning romaji/pinyin) should always be second to the characters, as the romanized writing system mostly serves as help for foreign-language speakers to read the words.
 
These should be swapped:
 
1.
 
From ''fuka'' (鱶, Japanese for "shark") → From 鱶 (''fuka'', Japanese for "shark")
 
 
2.
 
From shā yú (鯊魚, Chinese for "shark"). → From 鯊魚 (''shā yú'', Chinese for "shark").
 
I'd really appreciate the help! :)
 
[[User:SLATE O|SLATE O]] ([[User talk:SLATE O|talk]]) 08:09, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 07:54, 30 June 2024

Talk:Shiver
Archives of old discussions are available here. Inactive topics should be archived when this page reaches 35 topics or 60,000 bytes. Current page size is 5,674 bytes.

Is a long "gender" section really neccessary?

Latest comment: 23 August 20238 comments4 people in discussion

I think it's good to add in the wikipedia page that Shiver's gender was unclarified when she was revealed. However, I feel that this would be more appropriate as a short section in "trivia" rather than a full section of her page. It feels unneccessary to bring up and makes it seem like a central part of her character. Tentiquills (talk) 14:42, 21 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I agree with this. The page is too long on its own. I think we should just remove the gender section and just put it in the trivia. WolfTamer 19:34, 21 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I agree, I feel like a much shorter trivia point would be much more relevant since Shiver's gender debates outdated a long time ago, and they have nothing related to the game itself, only to the fanbase. signatureMilchik (talk) 20:05, 21 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
This was recently discussed on this exact page; I stand by believing the best course of action would be moving the information to the pre-release/unused content pages as the topic is worth documenting. It should not be fully removed from the wiki. A trivia point with a link to the moved information would work very well. Also please note that Wikipedia is an entirely different wiki. Yoshifan52 (talk) 21:33, 21 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I didn't know we have such page, but I like Yoshifan's idea. signatureMilchik (talk) 21:52, 21 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The prerelease article is for documenting prerelease information. I've gone ahead and moved the section here and added the related trivia point to this article. Yoshifan52 (talk) 21:57, 21 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I misspoke and called it wikipedia on accident, that was my bad sorry. also thank you for moving it to prerelease! Tentiquills (talk) 11:50, 22 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No worries, and no need to apologize, I just wanted to make sure there's no confusion there. Happy to help! Yoshifan52 (talk) 06:18, 23 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Last Name

Latest comment: 16 November 20232 comments2 people in discussion

I'm creating a discussion here to avoid an edit war. I believe that it is very clear that her last name is "Hohojiro", the devs wouldn't have added the name to the family crest sticker if not. There's been discussion in the discord as well and the majority agrees. Unless there is any evidence specifically pointing towards it not being her last name, we should keep it on the page. kris(talk) 17:16, 9 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

New video early showcasing the Deep Cut amiibo confirms it is Hohojiro indeed! Spleet (talk) 10:44, 16 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Blue, Indigo or Purple?

Latest comment: 16 November 20234 comments3 people in discussion

A minor nitpick on Shiver (and other Splatoon 3 characters)'s color. Technically, I don't think Shiver's color classifies as blue. It is pretty much a cold purple, also called indigo. The same color is present on the tentacles of Acht and the default playable Octoling depicted in artwork (commonly known as Hiro iirc). The curious thing is that Hiro's amiibo is called "Octoling (Blue)" (and in the most recent Splatfest dialogue, Shiver herself calls Frye's fingers "blue" despite them being a warmer purple than Shiver's own hair). Are they actually blue, though? All of the things I mentioned are literally closer to purple than blue (and as for Shiver, I think she does reflect the purple in the Splatoon 3 logo, with the other colors being yellow and gray)… I don't know. Maybe my color perception is different, lol. Whaddya think? Spleet (talk) 10:42, 16 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

There's been back-and-forth edits on this in the past and even after a lengthy discussion in the Discord (that got a little weirdly heated) nobody could agree what specific color(s) to call it; it's clearly at least close enough to blue to cause substantial confusion. Additionally, the color isn't depicted with 100% consistency and varies depending on lighting or the source (whether it's Shiver's hair, her clothes, her ink, icons/logos representing her/her family, etc). "Two-tone blue" is the most reasonable compromise we can have short of including multiple actual color hexes or RGB values, which would look pretty informal and sloppy. Driftin Soul (talk) 13:25, 16 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Second what Driftin says above, plus, we always go with source material wherever possible. Having Nintendo call it blue in both amiibo form and in-game doesn't leave us with much wiggle room :) Slate Talk Contribs 14:18, 16 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Oh ok, thank you. I'm not in the Discord server, so I wasn't aware of the discussion here! Thanks anyway. Spleet (talk) 18:27, 16 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Retrieved from "https://splatoonwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Shiver&oldid=610646"