Talk:Shiver

Source for gender

Do we have a source for Shiver's gender? Let's not make twitter claims from randoms the factual basis for the character Pinkolol16 (talk) 05:56, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

The person who’s changing it is a VANDAL and must be blocked. I have already left a message on Shahar’s talk page and on the Inkipedia discord. OrderSquid38 (talk) 05:59, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

It seems the Portuguese Nintendo twitter account uses "pela" to refer to shiver, which is the femenine form of "por".

I don't know if this wiki takes other languages as canon or waits until the English version confirms. RollForItto (talk) 16:25, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Gender

All, please stop accusing good-faith editors as vandals. Admins are not going to block editors who are acting in good-faith.

We should cite our sources, yes the "obvious" included. One viewpoint is not the only viewpoint, for example it is not obvious that Shiver is female as their white top is a bandage which would indicate transmasc. In future, please start a discussion on Discord or on the talkpage.

We may want to move to using "Pronouns" instead of "Gender" on character infoboxes.

Regardless, I have yet to see any pronouns for Shiver in any material, and until we have a good citation, I do not want Inkipedia to confirm a gender (and be wrong) Slate Talk Contribs 11:03, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

I’m fairly certain that Shiver is female. Most fans have called her "she" and "her", and her Spanish name is "Megan". Nintendo hasn’t explicitly confirmed this yet, but I do believe she’s female. WolfTamer File:S2 Icon Callie 3.png 11:52, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Understood, however the French localization uses "Pasquale" which is masculine, rather than "Pasquala" which would indicate feminine. So it appears that we cannot infer from the localizations either. Let's wait until we have confirmation from a Nintendo source. Slate Talk Contribs 12:07, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Pasquale is pretty rare and used, just like the more common Pascale, neutraly. Pasquala isn't french as far as I know.

Given we yet have very little in the way of actual dialogue and only English, French and German use gender-neutral names (all of which are secondary languages), I feel like the section should be purged of theorycrafting until further information is given, and replaced with a statement about the current lack of information while the page continues using "they/them" as per the wiki rules (and common sense).

Talk should continue to happen in the Talk page though as we learn more and more, and the claim DDdreamer heard about feminine pronoun in japanese would be interesting to verify Raykable (talk) 02:27, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

I think it would be alright to get rid of the 'gender' section in the infoboxes, but I don't think it should be replaced with a section for pronouns because they can already be seen from their use in the article.  GX_64 (talk)  12:14, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

If other users would like a pronoun section to be added I am completely fine with it, I just think it is a little bit redundant since the pronouns are already there  GX_64 (talk)  14:11, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Pronouns would work!! It is important to know that pronouns don’t equal gender so I feel like we should have both gender and pronouns (ex. Marina, Gender: female Pronouns: She/her) I would also like to say that we NEED to leave Shiver’s pronouns as they/them and gender as unspecified because in most languages (besides french) there is no words that indicate a specific gender!! (Question though are the masculine terms in french used when you don’t know someone’s gender? From what I know I don’t think the language has a lot of gender neutral terms) But when we get the pronouns and gender we can change it!! Just because the past idols have been female DOESN’T MEAN SHIVER IS!! So guys please don’t change their gender and pronouns to female and she/her!! We can do that if they are confirmed female!! Oddlildude (talk)File:AnemoneNo1.jpeg 02:54, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

So I know this isn't a hard confirmation, but I heard she uses the pronoun "uchi", which is one of the most feminine ones in japanese. Could anyone check the japanese subs and confirm? DDdreamer (talk) 08:22, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

I think it would be much less controversial and unbiased if the gender section included a counterargument for her lack of gender, such as how her body shape, voice, names in several languages, and clothing are all explicitly feminine. Additionally, her Sarashi is also a traditionally female piece of clothing, often used with a kemono to bind breasts for traditional Japanese dancers. I don't think this is 100% proof that shes female, but the way the article is written currently seems to be a bit biased towards the conclusion that her gender is unclear.

I will agree that some of the edits seem to be a bit petty, but ultimately reasonable given the standards present for every other female character in the series. I wish people could have a more civil and productive discussion about this. Rixor14 (talk) 03:33, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

In the Japanese direct, at about 28:32 when showcasing the three way splatfests Shiver’s dialogue that appears 「あんさんら、ようやってはるねぇウチが背中押したるさかい、おきばりやす〜！」(translated to something like “You guys are doing great! I've got your back, just hang in there.”) uses the feminine personal pronoun 「うち」(uchi). It’s written using katakana 「ウチ」which is generally used for emphasis similarly to how English uses italic or bold fonts. Uchi is almost exclusively used by girls and women (particularly in the kansai region, and Shiver speaks with a heavy Kyoto dialect). The only time it’s used by men is in certain contexts expressing something belonging to your family/houshold, which isn’t being done here.Translucent Ink (talk) 02:06, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Theory on gender

I think that Shiver is female because of her eyebrows. It is (probably) well-known that female and male octolings have different eyes, with the female ones having a point at the bottom outer corner. If you look at any example of octolings, you can also see that the female ones universally (as far as I've seen) have shorter eyebrows. This has led me to conjecture that the smaller eyebrows indicate female, (it also applies to inklings), and therefore Shiver is female. Just a theory though. Wilh3lm (talk) 00:36, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

As much as I believe Shiver is female, we do not have any evidence from Nintendo that she is. OrderSquid38 (talk) 00:37, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Eyebrows don’t really indicate gender. Yes, the octolings and inklings did do that in the first two games but now you can customize the eyebrows!! So now a boy inkling can have small eyebrows and a girl inkling can have thick eyebrows!! In real life you don’t walk up to someone and say they are a boy because of their eyebrows!! (I’m very sorry if I came off rude!! I understand where you’re coming from a little bit but I wanna let ya know this!!) Oddlildude (talk)File:AnemoneNo1.jpeg 03:11, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Here's the thing. Literally every single known example *including the customization screen* shows a clear distinction between the "styles" with long and short eyebrows, and the short eyebrows on octolings are always (afaik) shown in with the known eye corners. Even different eyebrow variants are most likely still limited, although there may be similar "long" and "short" types. Wilh3lm (talk) 10:23, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Forgive me if this is a bit out-of-line, but if I can make a suggestion, I don't think the exclamation points in your posts are sending the message you want them to send. I'm sure it wasn't your intention, but to me, that makes your speech read as a bit overly-confident and passive aggressive. I would recommend trying to take a more professional tone when dealing with issues like this in the future, you'd be surprised how far it goes when it comes to reasoning with people and having an overall better discussion. Rixor14 (talk) 03:43, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Can we lock the page?

Someone keeps changing shiver’s gender to female and pronouns to she/her so can we please lock the page if possible and have an admin or bureaucrat edit it so they/them is used and the gender is set as Unspecified?? Oddlildude (talk)File:AnemoneNo1.jpeg 03:14, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

My edits are in good faith. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ShiverisFemale (talk • contribs) 03:38, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

• Whether good faith or not; this has become disruptive as well as spurning some negative behavior from other as a result. It is counterproductive to be in a cycle of people reverting each other. Disagreements should be respectfully discussed and settled through reaching some kind of consensus. In this case, we already had a sysop come along and place a comment stating to not change the text in the infobox until we had a credible source cited. And regardless of the infobox or whatever the factually accurate answer for that is, there was no justification given for removing the section of the article documenting the notably unusual manner that this character has been described to us.
  Until everyone can be respectful and productive, the page should be protected. —Ikaheishi (talk) 04:30, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
  • I added the protection notice!! Hopefully soon an admin or bureaucrat will see and protect the page!! (If the protection is removed please put it back up! just search protection templates and ya should find it!!) Oddlildude (talk)File:AnemoneNo1.jpeg 04:53, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree on the idea of locking the page. One form of the page utilizes information to reach a logical conclusion, but many edits are removing this without meeting the same standard of evidence, and worst of all being repeatedly made without discussion amid repeated deletion of the steps taken to reach a conclusion. If an attempt to ignore the process of consensus is going to be a repeated issue then limiting options to encourage discussions to take priority is a good idea. Talons235 (talk) 05:23, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Edit warring is not acting in good-faith. Creating a new account solely to put your point across rather than discussing with your fellow editors is not good-faith (and I strongly suspect sockpuppeting too, which is against our established policies). I've protected the page. Slate Talk Contribs 06:55, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you slate!! It really stinks we have to do this!! I dunno why people think we’re wrong to have the gender as unspecified!! Even if Shiver looks like a girl to some that doesn’t mean they are!! We are playing it safe because there hasn’t been any gendered terms in any language (I checked with french and the masculine terms ARE used for when you don’t know someone’s gender) Oddlildude (talk)File:AnemoneNo1.jpeg 14:21, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Definitely. Likewise, even if Shiver does dress androgynously, that does not mean that they are not female. But the only evidence we have from sources is a seemingly intentional lack of gendered terms. I'm sure we'll all look back on this moment and either have a good laugh about it or realise we accidentally stumbled on something. Slate Talk Contribs 16:01, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Signature colour

Hello everyone, I was wondering if it has been stated officially that Shiver's signature colour is blue? Because if not, I'd argue that it's purple (with a heavy blue undertone). The background here¹ is purple (Big Man's is red, Frye's is yellow – both their respective colours) and Shiver's top is also purple, while the hair is purple and blue. Additionally, purple is in line with the game's colour theme, so it would make sense (Frye = yellow, Shiver = purple).

However, if it's just me who sees it like that, then I shall accept that without a problem! :) I just thought it's purple.

¹https://i.imgur.com/zvugwWl.jpeg

SLATE O (talk) 04:32, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

I would say that it is neither blue nor purple, but rather a variety of blue-violet. Aside from splatfest teams, purple ink seems to be the hallmark of the Octarian forces. — Ikaheishi (talk) 05:00, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

I completely forgot about the existence of the term "violet". :D Should we use blue-violet in that case?

SLATE O (talk) 07:43, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Seems more violet but I think the blue comes from the splatfest colours (blue/yellow/red). I like the game pallette idea though. Slate Talk Contribs 08:41, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Edit request

As I'm currently unable to edit anything on here due to the page-lock, I would like to make a short request.

Can someone please swap the order of the kanji/romaji and hànzì/pinyin in the "meaning" section of the name table.

Initially, I put pinyin first because I saw someone do the same with romaji in Japanese. However, I thought about it again, and these (meaning romaji/pinyin) should always be second to the characters, as the romanized writing system mostly serves as help for foreign-language speakers to read the words.

These should be swapped:

1.

From fuka (鱶, Japanese for "shark") → From 鱶 (fuka, Japanese for "shark")

2.

From shā yú (鯊魚, Chinese for "shark"). → From 鯊魚 (shā yú, Chinese for "shark").

I'd really appreciate the help! :)

SLATE O (talk) 08:09, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Fuka is less common word than Same for shark. It reminds most Japanese of fukahire (shark fin). The number of species of sharks whose names suffixed with ‒buka is less than those with ‒zame.

Tats-u (talk) 14:25, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Nintendo Life article and the lack of concrete info.

Yeah, I think something needs to be done about the misinformation being spread by this article. Nintendo Life recently wrote an article about this speculation, and it uses text directly from this wiki article as evidence. I'm aware that this article meerly states that the gender is unknown, but a lot of people have taken that to mean they are overtly non-binary, which is an incredibly dangerous precident to set. If anyone remembers what happened with Flick and CJ from Animal Crossing, I think you can understand why. Headcanons are great, but I don't think its healthy to stretch canon in order for it to fit them.

I mentioned in a different comment, but I think it would serve this article well to include text explaining why the character is likely to be female, as to avoid seeming biased and focused on theory-crafting. Things like her body type, names in various languages, cultural roots, and voice actor, really seem to indicate, at the very least, a female lean. Not to mention the lack of any definitive, cited sources for the idea that her gender is purposefully ambiguous.

I'm more than willing to accept how some fans feel about the character, and I understand that it makes them feel more comfortable to imagine a character's identity to be closer to theirs, but I really don't think this should be in the way of actual canonical info. If this conclusion does end up being true, then thats one thing. But as of right now I don't think the default assumption should be "Deliberately ambiguous" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rixor14 (talk • contribs)

No. The article says that the gender is unspecified & unknown. It is up to the reader if they want to extrapolate from there. The wiki has not confirmed any gender or agender. Once again, we are not confirming Shiver if is female until have confirmation from source material. If the source material reveals that Shiver is female then great. If not, also great. Either way, it'll be a nice bit of trivia to add in the future. It is deliberately ambiguous because it requires purposeful effort to not gender a character in other gendered languages such as French and Japanese, as explained in the article. We are not assuming here, and in fact, trying to theory craft Shiver being female because of the voice actor (women voice male characters all the time - that's a skill of voice acting) and "her body type" (this reads andro to me and at least one editor has read Shiver as male in the history) and names (this works for non-binary and transmasc individuals) is pushing more of an agenda than sticking to the facts of Shiver being unspecified.

You raise a good point that we have not cited any of the gender paragraph, however this would be proving the negative. A source has not yet come to light where any of the material in any language has gendered Shiver. Yet, we can prove the pronouns used for Frye and Big Man, and we should do this.

We are not responsible for what Nintendo Life publish and like all news sources, a primary goal is to rack up engagement metrics, and so a more "out there" title will garner more clicks. Slate Talk Contribs 17:32, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

The current state of this page is not a Inkipedia-head-canon or theory of Shiver being non-binary. Every language supported by Splatoon 3 has been analyzed multiple times and shows, or better yet, shows no indication of how Shiver is addressed. The current amount of information is small, as Shiver and Deep Cut have only been known for a few days and how this page is currently written cannot be considered misinformation. Like mentioned it is not our responsibility how other sites, be it posts on social media, online news articles or other wikis handle this information. Your comment is respected but we will only accept statements from Nintendo or in-game confirmations as facts and will update the pages as soon as new information becomes available.  Perfectionist  (talk) 17:55, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, i understand that it's not normally you as the editors responsibility to determine what is gleaned from the article by readers or other outlets, but I do think the article could use a few more sources, specifically for the conclusion that the ambiguity in the text is intentional, and not just a messy translation job. To me, the fact that most of the names in various languages are female-given names seems to contradict the conclusion that she's intentionally non-gendered. I understand these things aren't as clear cut to some people as they are to others, but it just seems like these are the principles of character design the series has used for its female characters in the past, so to me it seems like a logical assumption for most fans to say that she fits that archetype. To my knowledge, this hasn't been an issue for past characters with overtly feminine names in multiple languages, such as past idols, despite no official pronouns being used to describe them upon initial reveal (Again, to my knowledge).

I appreciate the response, and I appreciate the effort to keep the article ambiguous. I just think there are a few things that could be improved, and a few sources that probably should have been provided before the gender section of the article was published as to avoid confusion. Something to prove that the language used to describe Shiver is different from any other female or male character in the series. And also that this discrepancy is deliberately about gender, rather than other potentially ambiguous parts of the character's personality. I don't know much about japanese, but I do know there are contexts where pronouns can be ambiguous that don't necessarily mean someone is ambiguously gendered.

To me, phrases like "Appears to be" seem to be based on opinion rather than fact. A better phrasing, I think, would be something along the lines of "Some fans have taken this to mean this" or "This could mean this" rather than a declaration of what seems to be the editor's takeaway from the information, at least, assuming there isn't a definitive source to say that this was Nintendo's intention, which I personally doubt there is. Rixor14 (talk) 18:53, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Alrighty, we can work with that :)

Let's add citations for a) The pronouns for Big Man and Frye, b) The usage of passive & avoidance for Shiver's pronouns (examples in various languages), and c) Remove the "appears to be" and any other weasel words. Agree that we need this to be concrete with no speculation on either side if we're having a hard line of waiting for source confirmation. Slate Talk Contribs 19:04, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Alright, thank you. That should go a long way in clearing up some misconceptions about this whole situation, I definitely appreciate it. Thanks for being respectful, and stay fresh. Rixor14 (talk) 19:25, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Add that she sniffs farts too.

Also: File:Gassy Mario Girls Peeyew.png — Nasty Färty Peeyëw (talk) 02:07, 16 August 2022 (UTC)